colie: 0:26

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Business-First Creatives podcast. I am here with my bestie Kati. She is amazing. I am gonna let you tell them who you are, where you're located, what you do, and how we know each other.

Kati: 0:40

Okay. Um, I'm Kati I'm located in the Bay Area, mostly East Bay, so Oakland, Alameda, San San Francisco. Um, and I am what I have coined as a new term that is docu-lifestyle photographer. I, um, come in and like facilitate for the light and for the groupings, and then just like let the chaos unfold and, um, the fun and the joy of life and moments. And so I document a lot of families, newborns, maternity, um, as well as weddings. Um, but I really, really love motherhood. Um, especially like really raw and intimate. I mean, just take your clothes off. It's all good. Uh, that's what I love,

colie: 1:32

So, I'm gonna backtrack just a second cuz I'm gonna say I know Kati from the internet, but Kati recently, well it's actually not recently, it's like six months now. Kati hired me to set up her do Dubsado VIP Day. And before we get to, you know, the services that I performed for her, I'm gonna tell you guys a funny story so that if any of you ever do this, you know that it's not just you. So Kati was planning a trip to Disneyland and she was like, Colie give me all of the tips. And I was. Well, when are you going And she was like, oh, September. And guys, I already had a trip planned for September, so I said, okay, but what dates? And she was like, oh, we're going the sixth through the eighth. And I was like, well, shit, I'm going the next week. And as I'm talking to her guys, I'm on southwest.com already checking for new flights. I'm on the Marriott app checking to see how much more my hotel would be if I switched. So when, when I said, oh rats, I'm going the next week. And Kati said something to the effect of, oh, it's a shame you can't come. At the same time stalker me who had already. Oh really? Cause listen, I could just change it. No problem. So then I ended up going on Kati's family vacation. Which the other funny part of this guys is that I didn't realize that she was actually on vacation with other families. So not only did I crash her family vacation, she was there with two other families. So I technically crashed their vacation too, but it was amazing. I got to hug her in person.

Kati: 2:58

Yay. It was so good. You know, Disney, I learned a lot. Now I don't know when I'm gonna be back to Disney, but my kids will go with you.

colie: 3:07

Oh no, you need to come back. We need to have like an adult trip.

Kati: 3:10

They need to up their margarita game. I'm not gonna lie.

colie: 3:13

I'm sure we could find some tasty drinks. Okay guys, now that we've gotten Disneyland out of the way, I wanna chat about the Dubsado setup that I did for Kati. So Kati, let's talk about why you hired me and how long you had Dubsado before I jumped in.

Kati: 3:29

Okay. Um, I hired you because you know what you're doing. Look, I, I don't do software management. Like I didn't start this business because I was like, I can't wait to learn how to use a crm. Like some people do that and I don't do that shit. I tried really, really hard to figure it out and it just like, it didn't make sense. And also up until last year I was working a full time job and doing photography like as a, until I moved over full time. And so I probably should have learned Dubsado or had someone setup Dubsado for me a long long time ago. I think I had it for like four years, three or four years, before you jumped in.

colie: 4:05

Okay.

Kati: 4:06

Um, and I have Janet, who's my assistant. She was trying to figure it out and she had figured out more than I had, but it was to the point where it was really, it was a lot of back and forth. I was like, okay, here, let me send you this and then let me send you this and then let me send you this. And I just didn't have any structures or systems or any workflows. I couldn't even figure out what a workflow was.

colie: 4:30

Kati,

Kati: 4:31

it was very sad

colie: 4:32

side hustle with no workflows? Like that just Also, I did not know that you still had a fulltime job until last year. So what was your full-time job before you went over to being a full-time entrepreneur photographer?

Kati: 4:46

I was an assistant principal for TK two. Yeah. And I mean, previously I was kindergarten teacher and then a coach. And then up to last year I was an assistant principal.

colie: 4:55

You taught

Kati: 4:56

A lot going on.

colie: 4:57

That's so cute.

Kati: 4:59

Oh my God, they're adorable. I, I love kids. I mean, which is, You know, fits very, it, it goes well into what I do. Um, I love hanging out with kids. They're awesome. But I think their parents were probably at me because I didn't know was doing on the back.

colie: 5:17

They're like, Kati, take these amazing photos, but like your communication sucks.

Kati: 5:22

Yeah, like literally if I hired me, I would've been like, what is this girl's problem? Like I just looked really, and I felt really disastrous. So then I think I overcompensated by like trying to figure it out and I just didn't know where to go. And I'm not a person that learns like, let me read this article and then I'm gonna know exactly what to do. Like now I. You do it, you're good at it. I saw you start posting that you were like, Dubsado certified. And I didn't know what that was, but I was like, that's great. I'm so happy for her. And then your Instagram like profile started changing. And I was like, well, how she's really doing things. And then I saw you had these VIP days and I was like, oh, but that means I have to learn how to do it. Like I'm not gonna do it. So, then, um, I saw that you offered it and I was like, take my money. I don't care. Set that shit up. Do you?

colie: 6:09

You know, your, your setup was one of my favorites. I, I don't think that I've ever had such trouble picking photos for a proposal, cuz as you guys all know in the listening audience, like proposals are how I usually sell people on buying my services. Like I make amazing proposals for photographers, but with Kati's, I made you four different ones, I think. And in all of them, the work was so gorgeous, I felt bad about not using some of the images that you had chosen. I was like, oh, but I have to find somewhere to use this photo. Maybe I can shove it in a questionnaire somewhere. Like, all of your work was so beautiful and you know, I'm glad that you hired me because hearing that you had absolutely no workflows is horrifying considering all of the work that you do. I mean, you're Dubsado, you know, you're, you're, you're not quite high volume, but you're definitely more high volume than like most family photographers, um, out there. So let's talk about these workflows.

Kati: 7:05

Well first thank you.

colie: 7:07

to

Kati: 7:07

Thanks

colie: 7:08

so welcome, Let's talk about these workflows. So did you finally learn how to use Dubsado? Like do you feel confident in using the setup that I gave you?

Kati: 7:20

Um, I feel confident in using the setup. You, I think we had so much back and forth. I'm so annoying. Cause I was like, uh, Colie, I need a spreadsheet. Like I need a document of what goes where. Cuz I don't know what's at, I'm clicking buttons just going out. I look like a fool. I'm like, Ooh, my bad. Don't, don't There's no take backs on an email?

colie: 7:40

We have that in Flodesk. Like, no, you can't take it back. I'm sorry. It's gone.

Kati: 7:44

Like, Ooh,

colie: 7:45

the internet

Kati: 7:45

ooh, my bad. And luckily, like my client, like luckily people are real, gimme a lot of grace. Um, I'm really happy about that. And I think perfectionism, I, I, I try to be a perfectionist and I'm just not, and I need to embrace that. I definitely have a better understanding of like what's happening, um, and like how things are working. And if a client asked me like, what am I doing? Cause some of my clients were like so used to my other chaotic way of doing things that all of a sudden they have something together and they like, they're like, what contract is with the invoice? Like what's hap, where am I missing things? I don't know what, like they're just lost. So that's been a thing. But yeah, I think I definitely understand. It's make made everything easier. I think right after you launched my workflows, the first thing I did was repeat client sessions.

colie: 8:31

Yes.

Kati: 8:31

that what I did?

colie: 8:33

you didn't quite have them yet. You, you were like, I wanna do repeat client sessions. And I was like, okay, but you, you're gonna do'em all in the same day. Right? Like, you were telling me what you wanted to do and I was like, Kati, that, that makes no sense. How about we try this?

Kati: 8:47

That's what I did do. That's what I was doing. So you helped me transform my

colie: 8:51

you sold them out in like two days.

Kati: 8:53

Yeah, I think, I think within 24 hours I was sold out. Yeah, and I didn't do a thing. I literally just sent a newsletter with a link and it was fantastic and taken care of, and everything populated. It was, I have never felt such a sense of relief before of like literally there's no other feeling of like, oh my God, I just sold this out. And more importantly, I didn't have to really do anything like confirmation emails are there, everything's there. Everything's set, because you were. Look, you need to have, you had me add extra sites to my, to my, uh, website, an extra page. You had me set things out. You had me choose all these dates. Like there was a lot of organization that was happening that in the moment I was like, oh, my know how to do. I hire people to do this for me.

colie: 9:43

So I've had a few people, that were like, you know, well actually I hired a customer research person, as you know, and one of the things that she came back to me with was, you know, everybody mentioned how much pre-work you send them. And she's like, I really think that you should add it to your messaging. And this was me. Melissa, I, it's in two emails. It's in the contract, it's in the proposal. Like I don't know how many more times I can tell them to expect four to five hours of pre-work. Like I tell them over and over again, I was like, I just think maybe they don't believe me when I tell them about all the pre-work. I was like, but what happens on the other side is everyone is always like, Wow, that pre-work really made me think about like my business and my offers. And the more that you guys give me in the pre-work, the easier it is for me to come up with systems to make your life better. So that you can, you know, launch these repeat client days and sell them out in less than 24 hours and not have to do anything after you send out the email link. So, I mean, that's amazing.

Kati: 10:44

Yeah. No, pat yourself on the back. I, I think I just was like, it was great. I mean, I'm so glad that I did it because I'm just not a, I feel like I'm a systems thinker, but not in that way because it, it's really hard when you're so focused on the creative and I'm editing galleries and I'm sending all these things to like shift focus to like, how am I gonna fix my ShowIt domain host to like hold this repeat client. But ultimately when I did, I send people to it regularly and you put it in my workflow that immediately upon being done with me a month later, it's like, you're part of the repeat client club. Sign up for this. So it's a rolling system now. It's not something I need to like send people, just sign up for it and it's amazing. And ultimately it's made me way more money. Because people, people are like, oh, I want a full session, not. Um, and it, I only do it for repeat clients. Um, so it's amazing. It's.

colie: 11:39

Well, and I mean, this has nothing to do with your Dubsado setup, but one of the things that I ask all of my clients, like everybody on my podcast, everybody, I mean, I, I tell everyone, okay, but like, how are you increasing your lifetime value of your clients? Like, what offers are you making? Like, how are you getting it to where you're not just like a one and done? I want everyone to have a way to bring people back onto their client roster, year after year. And so I just think that you doing repeat client days is absolutely brilliant. Because instead of offering them like your full service every single year, because a lot of families don't feel like they need that, they want, you know, an update and they love your work, and so you are allowing them to work in a way that still gives them amazing images, but with less time on your end and you're still protecting your profit margin. Which is super, super important.

Kati: 12:31

Yeah. I think another way that you did that was introducing Yearbook sessions to me too. Was, I, I didn't have that before. You were like, Something to the effect of, uh, ma'am, uh, you're not making any money. And I was like, Ooh, tell more about how I'm not making any money. And my profit margin was like a hundred dollars or something. And I was like, Ooh, okay, let's do that differently. And so you not only were like do this, but then you priced it out for me. You created the whole package, you did everything. It then went over to Pic-Time cuz I was like, just, just make this happen. I don't know how to do this. Um, so yeah, there were multiple points in my business where you were like, yeah, no, you need to make more money, you need to do more.

colie: 13:13

need more money because your, your work is amazing. So for anybody listening that doesn't know what a yearbook is, in case you're not a photographer or you're just not familiar with that phrase, um, I actually built my business off of selling what I call yearbooks, other people call them baby plans. I think that's a plain way to describe it. So I called them yearbooks. Um, I basically found through some trial and error that my photography clients and then with many other photographers, if you are offering them the opportunity to book three sessions, when they hire you for the newborn, they are way more likely to do it. And I personally prefer to spend multiple sessions in a year with one client than to book three different clients. Even if it means that I'm giving them a discount, even if it means that I'm technically making less money, like I'm building more of a relationship with that client, and that again, is going to increase my lifetime value with those clients. Because out of all of the clients that I've ever had with yearbooks, I mean very few are not still my annual family clients now. So that was just like, the way that I built my business. And so whenever I have the opportunity to get other people to like really hammer in those baby plans in the beginning, I just feel like it helps you grow your client roster so much quicker and also helps you with the deeper connections with your clients, which is something that I know Kati is all about in her business.

Kati: 14:36

Yeah. I think the change that I've seen in my work, it makes everything easier really, because a lot of them that are booking, so I would say about 60 to 70% of my clients now are booking yearbook sessions.

colie: 14:49

Hi. so

Kati: 14:50

Mm-hmm. So that means I either get them for maternity, then newborn, and then an extra or newborn, and then all of them. And it first of all, I get to see babies grow. Which is like the best thing. So, which is why I love repeat clients too. I was like sobbing every single day of them because I'm getting these, these kids back that are like so big and I'm very invested in all these families, um, but I also, it just makes it so much easier if I step in and they have a toddler, or a young child, they know me automatically. Like we're going, like I had a repeat client session that I had the second one happen after a newborn and I showed up, I got out of the car and dad's in the window and the little with the baby and the toddlers waving at me and I immediately get my camera out and I'm snapping. And it's like we are starting just from the get, there's no getting used to you, there's no warming up, like they're totally fine with me and the images are better, just more authentic. And so, and they're like you said, they're the people I wanna hang with. I wanna be with people who I get to spend time with.

colie: 15:53

Absolutely. I was actually just texting cuz that's a thing that I do. My clients that are in my annual membership, they all have my phone number, they send me real text messages. But my, my client, Martha. Martha, if you listen to the podcast, Hey! Martha was in my text messages last night after I sent them their gallery for this year and she's like, both the kids have grown so much since last year, but like Bodhi is, it's, her oldest, is just so big. And I was like, no, I was weeping when I was finishing your gallery because her daughter, um, her daughter was like this very tiny brown haired little girl in the hospital and now she's like this gigantic, um, toddler with blonde hair. To me, she has just changed so much. And it's not just the hair color, but like that's the most amazing thing to me. Um, but she was outside, like sucking on a lollipop with sunglasses on, and I was just like, she's so big now. I've photographed her since she was this big.

Kati: 16:49

I know I feel like even more when you do that, it's like you photograph more of what the parents really love and care about. You get those moments cuz you are like, yeah, I, I'm so invested in you as like a human and just all your moments. It makes it so much easier. Um,

colie: 17:06

I will say though, if you haven't done enough of these yet, Kati, I have now figured out that when the kids are Lila and Bode's age, which are Martha's children, I actually have to struggle to photograph them the whole session because literally all the kids wanna do is take me all around the house and show me their new bedding, their new posters, the new book that they read. And so like I have to tell the children, listen. Miss Colie has to photograph you doing all of these things with your parents and then you can show me whatever you want. Like Miss Colie has put 20 or 30 extra minutes on the end of the schedule so that I can just sit and play with you. And those particular kids were like, but Miss Colie, aren't you gonna get in the trampoline with us? And I'm like, no, cuz I'm not trying to break my neck at the session. so. They weren't the only ones. This year, I've just noticed that several of my clients that I've been photographing for like, let's say six or seven years, like all of them were the same this year. I walked into the house and the kids were excited to see me, so excited that all they wanted to do was play with me. They didn't care about the camera at all. And so, you know, it was like a new, okay, but Miss Colie has to do her job first, and as soon as I'm done with my job, I promise we're gonna sit down, we're gonna have popsicles. Lilah in particular, tattooed me all up. I mean, I had mermaid tattoos all over my it was so cute.

Kati: 18:21

See, that's the best. Like, it just makes everything better. I think it's really hard to run your own business. It's hard to be on call and those moments make it, you know, just so much better when you go in and you're really able to connect on a very human level. Um, and like drop the pseudo professionalism of like, I'm here and I know what I'm doing.

colie: 18:41

I mean, I feel like you and I could talk about our clients all day. So I am gonna segue this conversation cuz I know that you outsourced your Dubsado to me. But like Kati, what else do you outsource in your business?

Kati: 18:54

Everything. I outsource, everything.

colie: 18:57

Guys, she said everything.

Kati: 18:59

I, I firmly believe in outsourcing, um, which took me a while to get around to. What do I outsource? I outsource accounting. I outsource my taxes. I, for a time was outsourcing editing, but I was, I find it really hard to find an editor who can edit melanin skin with high intensity of melanin and dark skin people or blended families or anything like, it's just,

colie: 19:23

It's a struggle.

Kati: 19:24

That's a whole other conversation about how people can't do that, that I won't get into, but essentially, I just don't trust anyone to do it. Um, and people have literally said like, this is too hard, I can't do it. So there's that. Um, I have an assistant, who is, uh, stepping out on maternity leave soon? So I hired another assistant.

colie: 19:44

Kati has hired my virtual assistant who was on episode 25 of the podcast. Sarah is amazing. I feel like I should stop spreading her gospel though, because if I get too many people to hire her, is she gonna have time for me?

Kati: 19:57

And then who else? Oh, I outsource Pinterest. I outsource Instagram. Um, I outsource blogging. I outsource my website. Everything. None of that stuff brings me joy. I mean, sometimes I post on Instagram if like I feel really drawn to it, but honestly I'm not drawn to post on Instagram. So maybe it happens once every three weeks or so. So, and I also have like real imposter syndrome and I tear apart all kinds of things. So if, you know, when people post things,

colie: 20:26

that.

Kati: 20:27

I'm just so, I just can't post something sometimes because it just feels like really anxiety written. So I hired someone. Who goes through my galleries and posts things for me and has all the stuff and she's great. Um, I outsource everything except taking the images and I was just thinking about.

colie: 20:46

the photos. Okay.

Kati: 20:48

Uh, I except my client calls, like my phone consultations. I wanna talk to people. I need to make sure we're a good fit. Um, so, you know, I don't show up and tell you to say cheese cause that will kill me slowly.

colie: 21:01

That will not happen.

Kati: 21:02

Janet sends all the things on Dubsado and all this stuff, or my assistant. and then I show up and I'm there and I edit, right now. If I do films, um, I take the films, but Films of Life, uh, she who I got from you. She edits films.

colie: 21:18

She stole my film editor too guys.

Kati: 21:19

She's amazing.

colie: 21:21

If I ever made a resource, well, I have a resource list technically on the website, guys. It's Colie james.com forward slash resources. But I feel like every time I hire someone, I just tell Kati who it is, just in case she wants to hire them too. But that's the good thing about having business buddies and business besties that you trust. Is that you, you know, you take their recommendation and you know that you're getting a high quality person, so that all you have to do is make sure that you can work together. You don't really question the, can they do what it is that I need them to do. And so I love being able to take that aspect away from people so that you feel comfortable in the outsourcing, but like you said, you outsource everything that isn't client facing and or editing the photos, which I think is great.

Kati: 22:04

Yeah, it really helps me. I mean, it's fall, so I'm just like insanely busy right now. But it really, you know, I went full time and I switched to this so that I could be with my family, be with my kids, and I wasn't able to do that before. So if I don't outsource, I'm going to be a mess laying on the ground. I don't know how people do it. So, yeah. I love outsourcing.

colie: 22:27

know, As many things as I outsource, um, Carolyn, when I was talking to Carolyn Fong, she goes, I literally cannot believe that you were doing all that you do before that without a virtual assistant. And my response was, I have a lot of fucking systems in place. Like I have a lot of systems in place that allow me to still do all of the things. I was like, but yes, Carolyn, like even since I took your recommendation and I hired Sarah, like Sarah is doing way more than I ever thought that I would delegate to someone and. That's not only a testament to like me being able to release control of some shit that I really needed to let go of, but also just how amazing Sarah is. And I feel without a doubt that if I ever tried to hand her something that she did not think was a good fit for her or that she did not think that she could figure out, that she would feel comfortable enough to tell me, you know what Colie, that's not something that I'm gonna do for you. That's not something that you should hire me to do. You should probably look for, you know, someone else to do that task.

Kati: 23:23

And ultimately I think that's the most important thing. Because I mean, just like the work that we do, if someone came to you and was like, I want you to photograph a cake smash or like whatever, right? Like you would, you'd be like, why? No. Like, that's not what I do. I'm not a good fit for that, and I want other people to tell me that too. That I'm not a good fit for that.

colie: 23:44

I will happily photograph your kid eating a cupcake on their first birthday. I, I do that all the time. I film it, it's great. But like only that, like, you want me to do just that? Yeah. No, I'm sorry. I'm not the person for you. I want all of the interaction. I want the dad who comes up and the little kid takes part of the cupcake and smashes it in his face. That's what I'm there. I don't know about anybody else. I'm also there to eat the cupcakes guys. Like I do judge you. I totally judge you on what kind of cupcake you serve me at your child's first birthday party. Just so that you

Kati: 24:16

What

colie: 24:17

I know Kati, so listen, there was a, a photographer, Raymond Hatfield, he does the Beginner's Photography podcast, and I was listening to him about, he was on Annemie's podcast talking about this. I will link it in the show notes for everyone. But what he basically said was he did an entire marketing campaign where he told people, I don't wanna photograph your wedding, I just wanna have some of your wedding cake. He did a whole campaign on it and he booked like 20 weddings off of him being so honest about his love for, for wedding cake. And what he said ended up happening was when people were filling out, like their work with me, the contact form, they were putting more details about the wedding cake that they had ordered than they were about like their actual ceremony. So I mean, I just, I tell people all the time, like, I will happily come to your child's first birthday party and document all the things. you are expected to feed me cake and send me home with cake too. I'm just saying it's like one of my requirements. My clients get like the most amazing cupcakes from bakeries around here. And I mean, this is not really a cupcake thing, but I did a session this year for one of my yearbook clients, turned annual clients, and they made biscotti while I was there. Like that's the activity that they did for the session and sent me home with this entire bag of biscotti and do you know that by the next morning I had eaten it all.

Kati: 25:39

I don't blame you. I mean, I think I get really lucky. I'm trying to think, I get sent home with food all the time, like people are trying to feed me. I think that's something that people know about me though, is that like, If, if you have any guesses about what Kati's doing, like she's snacking, like she's eating so but I get sent home with all kinds of things. I used to say no, cuz I used to feel bad and now I'm like, whatever. If you wanna gimme, you wanna gimme half that cake? Sure.

colie: 26:04

All right, Kati, I'm gonna ask you a question that I ask all of my guests, is, what was your biggest fuck up in business? What did you learn from it, and how did your business grow?

Kati: 26:15

I think it's not having boundaries.

colie: 26:17

Okay.

Kati: 26:18

I'm like, and it's happened a couple times. I'm definitely like a people pleaser. And so oftentimes in the beginning of my business, I just wanted to book people so badly that I would say yes to things that, and I, I would say yes to things that would get me in a situation that was like, oh my God, I can't photo, like I can't photograph this beautifully. I really, you know, I'm looking for small moments and so I think my biggest fuck up, I mean, number one was like not outsourcing things in the beginning and being worried about it. And number two, um, was like, I, I wasn't able to say like, I'm not a good fit for you. So now I start my phone consults off with like, tell me what it is that draws you about my business, about my work, because my work is different than a lot of other people's. Um, and your gallery is not gonna look the same as someone else's. And I don't do Pinterest pretty, so like,

colie: 27:08

Pinterest pretty...

Kati: 27:10

I don't, I mean, I think that their, their family is beautiful. But if you, I've shown up to sessions where clients have literally said, I saw this on Pinterest, can we redo it? And in that moment, what I needed to say was, no, I can't do that. Because I can't, like, I don't wanna pose your one year old. That's weird. So and I can't, it's weird for me, like if that's what you wanna do when your one year old's with it, do you? I don't, I don't wanna do that because I don't wanna end in tears. I like to lead, I like to end in happiness, so,

colie: 27:41

I mean, have you ever done that though? Have you ever had like a moment during a session where there was a lot of sadness and you were like, yeah, no, I can't leave until the child is happy again, I tell the parents that, I'm like, no, listen, it is better for me if I wait. Until the, until the mood swifts. I said, otherwise, your child might remember that they were crying the I came over with a camera. And then the next time that we have a photo session, it's gonna bring up bad juju. So like I'll put my camera down, sit down, play with the children, you know, like running around and happy again. And then I stay for like another 15 minutes and then I'm free to go.

Kati: 28:16

That's exactly what I did in the session today. Had a toddler, he was not with it, he didn't like it. The parents were fine, but cause I kept saying this, this is how it. This is how it's gonna be. And then he fell, he started crying. I, of course took pictures of the tears, cuz like, you have these big, huge tears and it's so beautiful. Um, and it was also sad. And then we started like playing with his lovey and then he was happy and we got the pictures that we weren't getting before because, you know, he just needed to be interacted with. And so I think not trusting my process enough, you know, and that goes with like not having boundaries. I, I was not able to say like, Hey, I'm not worried about this. I know what I'm doing. Or like, no, you got the wrong photographer. Do you want me to dip out? And there's been multiple times in like

colie: 29:00

You're like peace

Kati: 29:01

which I think is like, is an okay thing, because I'm not the one you're looking for. I think you saw my work and you saw something and it's, the process looks different than the product, if that makes sense. Like

colie: 29:13

It does,

Kati: 29:14

it feels like chaos. And it is chaos and then it's beautiful and some people. I have to be able to trust, to be like, no, trust me, I, I know what I'm doing. And that took some years.

colie: 29:24

So, I mean, clearly you have boundaries now. Clearly you have grown from it.

Kati: 29:29

Um, yeah. And, and even so, like, I think. People have different experiences with photographers. Different cultures have different experiences with, with photographers. Like I grew up with JC Penney, put on all plaid and posed with your, with your Mary Jane on, um, you know, and other

colie: 29:46

Olin Mills over here. I don't, I think I'm so old that a lot of people don't even know what Olin Mills is, but my mother, I mean, she did so many sessions between, you know, before the age of four for me. I mean, all standing there and I have on a pretty dress and my hair is in pigtails and yes.

Kati: 30:04

Yeah, there's like, everybody has different experiences and um, so I really try to do just a lot of education up front and just be really upfront about who I am and just be me the entire time. Because when I'm trying to fit into some weird box of like trying to be someone else, just personality wise as well, like, it's just everything's inauthentic. So I just feel like if I'm gonna do this, you're gonna get me. And, and that's, that's what it is.

colie: 30:29

But I think now that your entire process from the time that someone finds you on the website to all the communication that you're doing through Dubsado and then what you're delivering them in Pic-Time, I looked at your entire process as part of part of my services, I do think that everything is consistent from beginning to end. So, I'm so proud of

Kati: 30:47

you. I agree.

colie: 30:48

You found your way and now you're in a place where you really do feel like your business reflects you and what you wanna offer your clients.

Kati: 30:58

I agree. Thanks, Colie. That's all you,

colie: 31:01

that's not on came to

Kati: 31:03

You were making, you made me do videos to all kinds. You, me. I'm over loom trying to figure out backgrounds.

colie: 31:12

The one thing I didn't make you do was a bunch of gifs which you know I'm gonna have you on the podcast again soon. We're gonna bring on your business partner, Arlene. I think I should have a conversation with Arlene and get her to record some gifs or some video clips of you so that I can make gifs your emails. Like I think that would just round out the entire experience. Because I made you do so much during your setup, I felt bad asking you to make me videos so that I can make gifs of you. But we're besties now. And now I can just be like, Hey, Arlene, when she's acting really goofy at a wedding, can you just take like a five second video clip for me? Thanks. Appreciate it. And then we could pop even more of your personality into those communications. I love that idea. Um, yeah, I just don't wanna be the one videotape it. So, yeah, Arlene's the one, she, she probably has so many already. She's just, I've just turned around and Arlene's videotaping me. So I'll send Arlene a note. Hey Arlene, can you go through your videos and send me some videos of Kati please, and thank you. I appreciate you. Alright guys, we are gonna wrap this up because literally Kati and I can sit here and talk for hours and I won't bore any of you with our back and forth. But Kati, if people wanna find out more about your photography services, cuz guys, seriously, I would fly to the Bay Area to have photos done with her. Tell everybody where

Kati: 32:29

Oh, you're so sweet.

colie: 32:30

internet.

Kati: 32:32

Um, you're so sweet. Also fly here, let's do it. Um, oh, I'll meet you somewhere outside of Disney. I'm Xilo Photography. Find me on Instagram, my website xilophotography.com. I think you can find me on Pinterest because I outsourced that, so I'm pretty sure Carrie made that happen. You find me on Pinterest.

colie: 32:54

During every one of these I give, I give everyone, like someone says something and I'm like, that's what I would put on a t-shirt for you. Do you know what I would put on a t-shirt for you? I outsource all the shit. That's what your T-shirt would say. I outsource all the shit. Kati, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Everyone, that's it for this episode. See you next time.

Kati: 33:15

Thank you.