Colie: 0:26

Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Business First Creatives Podcast. Today, I am speaking with Lydia Fine, who is a self proclaimed part time photographer, and she loves it. Guys, today's conversation is going to be super interesting. You guys know I love systems, and it turns out Lydia loves systems just as much as I do, especially. For part time photographers, which is a very interesting angle to take. Lydia, good morning and welcome to the podcast.

Lydia: 0:56

Hi, thanks for having me.

Colie: 0:58

Well, I mean, you know, you drop into my inbox and everything that you say is wonderful. And I'm like, okay, I am going to have her on the podcast. This is going to be fabulous. Okay, Lydia. So I want you to tell the listening audience how you started your photography business, and then we're going to kind of backtrack and talk about your full time job and all of that good stuff.

Lydia: 1:19

So it was 2020 and it was after March, quite a bit after March, actually, it was September of 2020 and a friend came to me and said, We can't afford actual family photos this year. We just built a house. You have a nice camera, don't you? I said, well, yes, I have a DSLR that's been hiding in a closet. I have no idea how to use it, but yes, I have it. And she said, will you come take a picture of us? Okay, fine. Um, I got very nervous because I am a type A all the way kind of girl. My dad taught me to never half ass anything and it was extremely uncomfortable for me to know I was going to do this thing and I was going to do it very badly. And I did. It was terrible. But I actually Recognize right off the bat that this was something that like anything I could learn, I could learn and I wanted to learn it and I got super obsessed. And so I went out to my social circle and said, who wants some free pictures? I'm learning a thing. So I did that for gosh, that first fall. I think I photographed 21 families.

Colie: 2:17

Nice.

Lydia: 2:18

yeah, everybody, everybody likes free. And then, um, after going through the winter, I just consumed all this education and I was just as obsessed as I was at the beginning. I thought, well, you know what, let's just slap a name on this puppy and make it official. And Apollo and Ivy Photography was born the following spring. And only because my name, Lydia Fine, fine is an adjective and having your last name be an adjective is kind of creepy. Like a little weird when it comes, like, what am I calling my photography fine?

Colie: 2:44

I mean, if, if the shoe fits, I'm all for it.

Lydia: 2:48

I don't know. Those early days, nothing felt fine, but,

Colie: 2:51

I mean, granted, you started, you started your business during the pandemic. I mean, that is so fascinating. I don't know that I know of anyone who actually started a photography business in 2020. Like, do you know what I mean? Because for me, I mean, of course, you know, I do in home sessions. And so the pandemic hit in March. And I didn't actually photograph any of my clients inside their house. It was either the end of July or the beginning of August. Like, and that was still, I wore a mask, I didn't hug anyone, I stayed six feet from them. I mean, it was just a really weird time. And I feel like fall was still really weird too. But maybe not for people who were actually photographing clients outside. I mean, maybe that wasn't as weird as what I did. Cause it, it legitimately took me Like a whole year, year and a half before I went back into a hospital. Like in Colorado, we were some of the last people to let additional support people back into the hospital. So, I mean, my fresh 48. business side of everything just pretty much died. It was like, okay, I guess I'm never going to do this again. What's next?

Lydia: 3:58

Yeah, I didn't go into somebody's home until the following April. So yeah, I did everything outdoors because, you're right, everything was still really weird, and there were all these waves of COVID coming through at the time, and it was really scary.

Colie: 4:10

Okay. So started your business in 2020. Let's talk about your full time gig because we were chatting before we hit record and we were talking about all the benefits of your particular full time job. So Lydia, what do you do for your nine to five and how are you navigating photography around that?

Lydia: 4:29

So my 9 to 5, my official title is Senior Marketing Technology Specialist. So I work in higher education at a university, which I've, I've been at this particular university for 15 years. Just a couple of weeks ago, I had my 15 year anniversary. So higher ed is well known for a pretty stellar work life balance and amazing benefits,

Colie: 4:50

Mm

Lydia: 4:50

is true. Salaries are usually a little bit depressed, especially for public institutions. And that's definitely, I think, the case at my institution as well. So I, I got into higher ed back in 2008, before I was even married. And I, I loved it. I've had kind of three different positions, but I've moved more and more into the tech side of things. And now pretty much all that I do is. Figure out how to make our different parts of our tech stack. Talk to our CRM, which comes in extremely handy for photography, and it also explains why I'm obsessed with systems just like you.

Colie: 5:25

Yes, I mean, and the funny thing, guys, I promise I'm not going to get rid of the podcast, but listening to Lydia talk, I'm like, wait, you mean that I could take what I currently do right now and go back to higher education and get myself a job doing it? I mean, that's actually a little tempting. Lydia's laughing at me. I'm being serious. So. The thing that Lydia and I discussed before we hit record that I want to make sure that I highlight for the listening audience is the fact that higher education does have depressed salaries, but it also has those amazing benefits and I was telling her about my entire pregnancy with Chloe. And how Chloe was 300, 000 in the hospital and that didn't include the doctor's bills. I never saw the full end doctor's bills. They just, I, I don't know if they sent them or if I was, you know, in the glow of having my baby, but guys, 300k and I paid 1, 500. That is how amazing higher education health benefits are. And so Lydia, you have confessed to me that you will never leave your job because you will never give up your benefits. Oh

Lydia: 6:28

babies. Both were in vitro babies. I 000 out of pocket for both. For both kids. Yeah. Yeah.

Colie: 6:35

my gosh.

Lydia: 6:37

lucky. There are people who are struggling to get pregnant and will get a job in higher ed simply for the infertility benefits. It's, it's amazing, right? I'm so, so lucky. And I absolutely recognize, recognize that. So, uh, The benefits are fantastic. There's, there's great PTO. The work life balance is wonderful. And yeah, that's one of the reasons that I'll never give up my full time job, but my husband is self employed. My husband is a stand up comedian and content creator. His job does not come with benefits, does not come with guarantees at all. And it is a very creative endeavor. And there's no such thing as annual pay raises when you're a comedian.

Colie: 7:13

Unless you give yourself one.

Lydia: 7:15

I know, which does not work. Let me just tell you that. So, you know, it's always sort of been known in our, the bargain of our marriage that I was going to be the person with the stable income and I earned my MBA and I'm, I earn a good salary and it's okay, you know, he's happier as the artist who's creating all the things and I think a happy spouse is worth a lot more than a full bank account.

Colie: 7:41

It is. I mean, and part of the reason that it's so hard for those of us that are self employed and I, like you, Lydia, do not know what it's like to live in a household where both partners are self employed. My husband is definitely a nine to five. I don't think my husband has the gumption. Oh my God. That's such a weird word to say out loud, but I don't think that my husband would ever make it as like a self employed entrepreneur. Like he just. He does not have that mindset of what it takes in order to run a business, but I do love him because his job is great and, you know, it pays for our mortgage. And it allowed me to build my business very slow, which I know. You're here to talk about being a part time photographer and you're balancing it with a nine to five. But I feel like for the longest, I was a part time photographer and I was just balancing it with motherhood. Like we didn't do daycare. Chloe was home with me and every stage where she went to school more is when I actually increased my capacity in my business. But you. are like goddess for balancing both a nine to five and your photography business. So what we're supposed to talk about today is systems and how they are very important for part time photographers. So let's just start with the fact that you do systems in your nine to five. Were you ever a photographer that didn't have systems?

Lydia: 9:04

I, I started my systems beef, like almost before I started taking pictures, I mean, almost immediately out of the gate. I had an Excel spreadsheet and I am all about the data. I love Excel. It's like my happy place. I like to joke that I'm more comfortable behind the computer doing the back office functions. of my photography business than I am in front of the camera. Is that it's just my world. So yes, CRM and, and I'm, I'm sure that my CRM support team really dislikes me, like the support team at HoneyBook. Because I am constantly reporting things to them to make their software better because I'm used to far more powerful CRMs, like the big dogs out in the corporate, not corporate world, in the, in higher ed and all those different spaces. So yes, I have, I love systems. I love automation. I love finding ways to make systems talk to each other, to make my job easier, to give me more data so I can make better decisions in my business. All of that. And systems make all of that possible.

Colie: 10:03

So let's talk about, did you have HoneyBook from the beginning, like from the moment that you opened your business or did you shop around for different CRMs? Cause like you said, you're really used to like the big powerful ones. And guys, I'm not having her name names or any of that because none of us need CRMs as that powerful. I mean, she works at a university. I want you guys to think of the level of data that they have there. I mean, we don't need that as self employed entrepreneurs, but did you start with HoneyBook or did you shop around?

Lydia: 10:30

I actually started with a different CRM for about four weeks and I found it to be so difficult to use and I had all of these onboarding calls. I'm like, this is what I do for a living. I, I do CRM implementations for a living. I don't understand why I cannot implement your CRM, like it is, it is too complex. And so I ended up abandoning it after four weeks and, um, switching over to HoneyBook because I said I don't, I don't need that level of complexity. And maybe there's some folks who do have lots of different offerings. Um, I don't, so HoneyBook is where I've been since, um midway through 2021, I think is when I started implementing that, but yeah, it's, it's worked really great. I've been able to jump in right as they added smart files.

Colie: 11:13

Oh,

Lydia: 11:14

yeah, so I didn't get used to the old legacy files. I jumped right in with smart files right out of the gate and it was kind of amazing.

Colie: 11:22

I mean, it's funny because you know, or maybe you don't know and listening audience, in case you need this, I have a CRM comparison guide on my website, which desperately needs to be updated now that HoneyBook has all of these fantastic features. But for the longest, I wasn't opposed to HoneyBook. I just couldn't stand the booking friction that they had. When you have the brochure and you could add images and all of these things that I talk about. I love in my CRM. You could do that in HoneyBook, but then when someone chose their package, they couldn't pay you. Like they had to wait for you to click a button to say, okay, and then it turned it into a proposal. And then they could sign the contract and then they could pay the invoice. Like that 1 step. It was just one piece of booking friction that I couldn't stand. So when people would come to me and they'd be like, okay, Colie, but like, why shouldn't I use HoneyBook? I was like this, this is like the one reason. I want someone to be able to choose their package, sign the contract and pay the invoice all within five minutes. Because if you're giving someone a break, you're giving them the opportunity to walk away, to decide that now is not the right time to spend this money on family photography or whatever genre you do. But so, I mean, now, that HoneyBook has smart files and you can go from the pretty brochure straight to the contract and the invoice. I am 100 percent behind HoneyBook. Also HoneyBook has that one thing that my CRM does not have, which is now you can add the scheduler into the smart file. So you can actually go from offer to schedule, to contract, to invoice. And so now I'm a HoneyBook fan. Is that something that you use in your business?

Lydia: 13:03

So I usually book out well, well in advance, so I typically will fill the majority of my fall calendar when I opened my books in November, December. So I just ask folks to choose a month and then later in

Colie: 13:16

Okay.

Lydia: 13:16

spring, I'll send out the scheduler to everybody. However, I just used HoneyBook's new lead forms to do my, to do my, my, my micro mini sessions that are happening in two weeks. And that was my first experience having people schedule at the exact same time.

Colie: 13:31

That they paid. Mm

Lydia: 13:33

yep. So

Colie: 13:34

changing.

Lydia: 13:35

it's wonderful. And the lead forms, the only thing about the lead forms is you cannot include a contract in them yet. I feel like

Colie: 13:40

And I don't understand. I don't

Lydia: 13:42

is. It's strange, but you can easily set up an automation that as soon as somebody submits that scheduler and they, it fires off a contract automatically, which is what I did.. And I made it very clear throughout the process that there is one more step you must complete before your spot is booked. And I filled them in three hours. Worked like a charm.

Colie: 13:59

That is fantastic. I love that you were able to do that. And I mean, you know, I'm a Dubsado user. Dubsado has that same limitation. And the funny thing is things like Acuity and Calendly do not. So I really want someone from these CRMs to explain to me why both of them have these amazing features and I can't get someone to sign a contract. Because from a consumer side, I legitimately cannot stand paying for something and then you send me a contract where I can actually see the terms and conditions because if I don't agree, what do I do? Like, do I tell you? Yeah, no, I'm not signing that contract. Can you send me back my money? Like, that doesn't feel good because then what if you say no? So I really hope that the CRMs that we both love, get their shit together and finally add a contract to these, these public booking options because it doesn't feel good to chase someone to sign a contract after they've paid you money and it also doesn't feel good to present, you know, terms and conditions that you're agreeing to after you have in fact paid me money. It's just strange to me.

Lydia: 15:02

Right. And as a part timer, that extra step of having to get another document ready, which in my case, I automated it. But if, if I, if I couldn't, oh my gosh, like that's the whole, the whole point of what I reached out to you to say is that part timers have less time than anybody, but they seem to be far more reluctant to embrace systems and automation. And I know it's hard and it takes time, but you invest that time up front and then it pays off over and over and over again. You have to find the ways to run your business so that you don't have to constantly be having all of these manual touches to things. You just, you gotta automate the hell out of it.

Colie: 15:37

So let's start with that. Let's, let's jump into the systems full fledged with that. If you're a part timer, what do you think is the most important part of your systems to set up first? Because I take the, the logic and I've done this forever. You know, you set up your inquiries, which then you set up your booking and then you set up your service and delivery and your off boarding and all of those kinds of things. But for a part timer, is there somewhere that gives you more value in your systems and automations?

Lydia: 16:08

So my personal opinion on this, and it may be different for different folks, depending on how your business started. I've never had the problem of needing to go out and drum up business because I take on a limited number of clients every year. My calendar fills up. So for me, that booking process, removing friction from the booking process and making that as seamless as possible is the number one priority. And yes, I have a lead flow and all of that is also ironed out. But, primarily the first thing that's happening, for me at least, is, is getting people's sessions booked, give them a way to pay their 25 percent retainer, you know, fill out the questionnaire, do the contract, choose their package, all of that, all at once. I love when I get an inquiry, I fire off a slightly customized, templatized email, attach a smart file, and then I do nothing. And then at some point, I don't know, I'm sitting there watching Deadlock or whatever the heck I'm into on TV these days. And this notification pops up on my Apple watch and it's like, so and so signed the contract. So and so paid the invoice. So and so has booked their project. And I'm just like, woo. I did all of that from my couch and it's

Colie: 17:15

from your couch. I mean, I make jokes. I do that from Dumbo. I mean, it's funny because, you know, we all talk about what we love doing. And when people are like, yeah, Colie, you don't need to talk about Disneyland as much. I'm like, no, but I always pair it with the fact that the reason that I can be at Disneyland riding these rides is that my systems are working behind the scenes for me. So it's wonderful when Chloe and I are waiting in line for Dumbo and I get on the ride. It's And by the end of the ride, I've gotten someone who signed their contract and paid their fee. And then someone else that filled out their client questionnaire, like those kinds of notifications are awesome. And I'm a little jealous that you're talking about your watch because you know, HoneyBook has that mobile app. The one for Dubsado is coming soon, but I am a little jealous.

Lydia: 17:58

The mobile app is actually phenomenal. I was at my daughter's volleyball game last night, responding, following up on some smart files I'd sent out that hadn't yet been submitted. And I could do that from the mobile app. And it was, it was great. I have a templatized email and it's pull up the project, send email, make a couple of customizations, fire it off. And then a little while later. Halfway through her second game, ding, so and so signed this contract. So and so's booked their project. But the mobile app does allow me to do more on the go. And again, as a part timer, my, my children drive a lot of the business decisions that I make that and just fear and anxiety. But, uh, I, I always think about, okay, if I automate this, if I spend some time, if I spend a little bit of money to maybe upgrade my Zapier or subscription or whatever it is to automate these processes, what am I going to gain back? And the answer is always time with my children. Uh, and. And are they worth it? The answer is always yes. They are 9 and 11, and it's, it's gonna go, I talk to all these parents of seniors because I shoot seniors a lot, and they are crying at their child's senior session, and they're just like, they tell me, just, it goes by so fast. So I remember that every time they remind me. But yes, it's always worth it because it's always more time with my kids.

Colie: 19:09

I mean, I'm currently joking around. I don't know if you've seen, I think I put it on Instagram recently, but I tell everyone, no, you need pictures of when they were little and cute so that when you get a newly minted teenager, you can look at those photos with a cocktail and cry and remember why you had children in the first place. I mean, the teenage years are rough. And that's why when they get to be seniors and you're like pushing them out of the nest, it is really sad. Like you are you are crying lots of tears. Some of them are tears of joy. Let me let me just put that out there. But also, like, I mean, motherhood and parenthood and all of this is a journey. And so as much as you can do to document it so that. As the seasons change, you can remember what it used to be like is fantastic. And not only for you, but like you're doing it for your future grandchildren, if you have some, because then they can see what it was like when their parents were young. I mean, I am almost the last generation, if you will, that didn't really have a lot of photos when we were young. I mean, I have a box of like school memories and school pictures and things like that, but like we didn't have a camera in the house when I was young. There were definitely not phones. Guys, you guys all know I'm, I'm old. Uh, we didn't do any of that. And so I just think that now our gen, our generation of kids are so lucky in that they are going to have all of these memories going forward that we didn't have.

Lydia: 20:30

So much, if we can actually get them off the dang servers and in a way

Colie: 20:34

And printed.

Lydia: 20:35

and print it. That's the thing. I think I'm the same age as you. I'm 43.

Colie: 20:39

Yeah, 44.

Lydia: 20:40

Yeah, so I'm the, I had the same exact childhood growing up where we did the Olan Mills family

Colie: 20:45

Girl, I, my whole box is Olan Mills. I mean, I mean, you know, and my mom, I mean, bless her soul. My mom was one of those people who really spent a lot of money at Olan Mills every year. I mean, she bought the canvases and, you know, the 16 by 20s and put them on the wall and then our house burned down. And so we don't have all of the photos that we had. I mean, some of the photos in my box, you can actually see the fire. Like the burn on the side. I mean, you know, so those things happen, guys, please make sure that you are printing and that you are also backing up and then backing up again, because those are definitely memories that you don't want to lose.

Lydia: 21:24

No. Oh my gosh. Oh, it's so tragic. It makes me sad.

Colie: 21:26

Yeah. Okay. So we're starting with booking. So booking, and I think that that's true for even non part timers. Like I think that unless you are being inundated with the actual leads, the booking process is a really great place to start. Again, that proposal contract invoice process is available in any CRM that you are using. So even if you are not currently subscribed to Dubsado or HoneyBook, any of them provide that service. They might call it a quote. Um, you know, the language is a little different, but you can create that process in any CRM. All right, Lydia. So they've set up their booking process. What would give them the biggest bang for their buck next?

Lydia: 22:10

Email templates. All

Colie: 22:11

Mmm. Mm

Lydia: 22:13

not reinventing the wheel. Every single time that you're sending a family a pre session email, you know, a week before their session of here's where we're going to be and here's where to park, here's the last minute things to know how to prep your children, all of that good stuff. Just. Templates, templates, templates, and don't do them in Gmail, do them in your CRM, because then you have all of your communication tracked in one place. I, I, I sort of cringe when some of my, uh, colleague friends are communicating with clients over Facebook Messenger, because do you remember, like, like, do you remember the, the, when it, there was the outage and everybody just lost their mind? I'm like, I'm not going to build my house on somebody else's sand. Like, I'm not. So. All the communication in one place makes it easier to track. Again, I don't have time to chase down an email that was in Facebook Messenger, Instagram, and the DMs, all that, so

Colie: 23:00

I mean, I think that that's a really overlooked benefit of the CRMs. I talk a lot about streamlining and automating, but what gets overlooked is the organization and the centralization of like all of your client stuff. Because if you're using a CRM, not only can you do the invoicing and the booking process there, you can also house all of your communication, the templates that you're saying, sending in some cases, when a client replies, your CRM will actually pull their response back into your CRM so that you do actually have a chain of communication inside of that project. And so, you know, having everything in 1 place is eventually going to save you time because you don't need to chase something down for every single one of your clients. But when you have that one client who swears they didn't get that email and you're like, well, oh gosh, did I send it? You don't want to be running through Gmail to look and then looking in HoneyBook and then looking at Facebook Messenger, Instagram, or I mean, if you're using WhatsApp, bless you, but like looking at all of these different places so that you can see if you actually sent the thing that you thought you sent. So centralization Is so important, especially for a part time photographer, because you really don't have time to be chasing down all of these things.

Lydia: 24:17

I have all kinds of weird little, little automations. I have an automation through Zapier that when I book a new project, it adds the client to my Google voice account as a new contact. So that if I am, you know, headed to the location for their actual session and we get there and something's weird, like all the trees have been bulldozed to the ground. I don't know, hasn't happened yet. And I really need to get ahold of them. I literally can open up Google voice on my phone and send a text because

Colie: 24:41

Mm hmm.

Lydia: 24:41

is already there.

Colie: 24:43

I do that.

Lydia: 24:45

It's already saved, so I don't have to go hunting it down and copy and paste and all that. So yes, it's a tiny little thing. It took me 10 minutes to build the automation, but it saves me time later.

Colie: 24:55

But let, okay, so we've talked about what they should do, but you and I have had a conversation about why people aren't doing it. And so part of it is that they think that if they have a part time business, they don't need full time systems. So can you talk a little bit more about that and then also like just the cost because I think people think because they're making less money, they shouldn't spend as much on systems as like full time people. And while I heavily disagree, what's your opinion, Lydia? Yes.

Lydia: 25:27

I have all the opinions. I think that part timers, for multiple reasons, right? They think of their business as sort of lesser in a way because they're not on the same level as a full timer. And so they think, well, again, I don't need full time systems. Like you said, but systems are about time management and time savings. And a part timer has even less time than your typical full timer to spend on this, this part of their life, their business. So we need systems more than anybody, and we need ways to save time. And we need processes that make sense and automations more than arguably more than a full timer. It's just the reality of the situation. Everybody needs them, but part timers really need them. But they're, they're the ones who are far more likely to think they don't need them or to think they shouldn't implement them. Again, because they're like, Oh, it's just a part time gig. It's like, well, actually systems are going to do all kinds of things. They're going to save you time and money. We've talked about that, but it's going to make you look like a professional to your clients. And that's what people need to feel secure handing over large quantities of money to a person to do a service. They need to know that you're a professional and when you send them a contract that, and not just like, okay, you're booked, see you then. Like they're, they're, I would be freaking out. I'm, I'm just the person who needs a lot more assurance than that. So your CRM your processes, your systems, they're going to do a lot more for you than just save you time. But that is definitely the most important part.

Colie: 26:56

I want to take one step back because you just said that you feel like part timers think their business is less. And so I don't think that I'm unique. I think you're probably a lot like me, but let's talk about this. When I was building my business, I was never trying to replace my full time salary from when I was a professor. Like, that just wasn't going to be possible. Like, in the capacity that I had, it just wasn't. So I approached my income and my, you know, what I paid myself slightly differently. All I wanted to make sure was that when it came down to my hourly pay, That I was making as much as my husband, like I wasn't making anywhere near as much money as he was because I wasn't spending as much time working as he was, but like dollar for dollar. I wanted to make sure that when I spent an hour on my photography, it was worth the same amount of money as when he went to his job as a biochemist for an hour. So have you done that kind of math for yourself? Like, are you making sure that how much you're making? Every hour doing photography is at least as much as it is when you are working an hour at the university.

Lydia: 28:06

So that's exactly, that's exactly the math I did because when you're a part timer and somebody says, okay, you're going to run your numbers. What's your income goal? Well, you're not trying to, to pay bills because your full time job is probably already paying all of your bills. So it's really hard to come up with that number. So instead I did what you just described where I said, okay, I don't know what my income goal is, but I do know that if I'm going to spend an hour on my business, I want to be making as much or heck even more, slightly more than I'm making at my full time job. So I used that exact calculation to determine my, my, my prices and my packages and figure out my cost of doing business.

Colie: 28:39

And I feel like if you do it that way, it actually makes it easier to justify purchasing and investing in a CRM because then you have a dollar amount for what you are making per hour. And if the CRM can do that thing for less, It totally makes sense to invest in the CRM to do it. So like if you listening audience, if you are a part time or even a full time photographer or creative, and you have never thought about how many hours you are spending writing your emails, sending your emails, tracking down your emails, sending proposals, tracking down your leads, all of those kinds of things. I want. Your next client for you to just get a piece of paper, I mean, or you could do it electronically. Either one is fine, but I want you to actually track your time. Like see how much time you are actually spending working with a client and then run the numbers. Like how much money is it costing you to continue to do everything on your own and not rely just a little bit on a piece of software that would help you.

Lydia: 29:41

And, you know, it goes beyond the software too, because I know you're a big fan of outsourcing and I've been, this is the first year that I outsourced all of my editing

Colie: 29:50

Woo hoo.

Lydia: 29:50

a lot of people that I know, uh, that I know of personally are very reluctant to do that because they equate, I've seen a lot of people say, Oh, you're too lazy. You're outsourcing, you're editing with a loss of control. And that is not the case at all. I don't know where that misconception comes from because I get a session. I call it myself. I've choose a handful of photos out of that session from each basic lighting scenario. So maybe seven or eight, I edit seven or eight photos. I send them off to Image Salon is who I use. And, and then. The photos all come back, all 110 of them come back edited just like those seven. So I didn't lose any control over what my sessions look like. But I saved myself a ton of time because I sent it off to Image Salon and then I went upstairs to tuck my kids into bed. My son likes to read for 30 minutes before bed every night. So I can do those things because I'm not down here tied to my computer editing. And I've also started using some AI for some of my other complex editing like, um, acne and blemishes on seniors. That is a thing and it is. It's hard to do, but some of the AI tools do it so well.

Colie: 30:52

That's amazing. And also the image salon is who I was using when I was using a company. And I think that part of the thing is, uh, okay. So first of all, the way that the image salon brings you in is a little different than some of the other editing companies, maybe not individual editors, but one of the things that I was most impressed with. For the image salon, and I made jokes that, you know, the image salon, I'm probably their most hated customer because every time they gave me a new editor. I would send them a gallery and I would request that they send me the previews and stuff. And if things were wrong, I would go through and make very detailed loom videos for them. That was like, okay, you did this. And do you see this number? And I would move it and I would be like, this is where it needs to be. And I would basically make a virtual copy, re edit the images to be what they were supposed to look. And I would send them back and with every editor, it would usually take 3 to 5 sessions until they started sending me back galleries that I opened them. And I was like, oh, Everything is perfect. Let me export to Pic-Time and send it to the client. I mean, you get to that point, but I feel like a lot of people don't feel like they have the time. To commit to the process of making the editing better because there is almost no world unless you're shooting outside. I mean, I will, I will admit you're shooting outside in beautiful light and your colors are awesome and you're nailing your exposure. Maybe editors can get your stuff down in like 1 session. But that's not always. And so there has to be some back and forth. Like, they are not mind readers. Even if you have one co editing session with them, it doesn't mean that they know what you would do in every single scenario for every single location that you shoot at. And so, You have to, like, take it upon yourself to know that you have to build in just a little bit of extra time at the beginning so that if they send you back the gallery and you do need to request changes, or you do need to just inform them of something that they did. That you would not do that. You are giving yourself time.

Lydia: 32:53

Right. You gotta onboard when you're quiet. I onboarded in, like, April.

Colie: 32:56

And that's what I did. Yes.

Lydia: 32:59

That's, that's when it's nice and quiet. I have plenty of time to give feedback. But at this point I have the same gal that's been editing my galleries all year. And she and I have had a call just to get in touch on a couple things. She nails it. She nails it every time. It's five stars across the board every single time. I don't want her to ever go anywhere because I love

Colie: 33:17

So we haven't really talked about what you consider success in your business. And I think that that's sometimes a little different for part timers versus full timers. So Lydia, how do you define success in your photography business?

Lydia: 33:31

So, you're right, this is a different question for a part timer, because it's difficult to define a specific income goal. Because it's all just frosting for me. But I think about having the money to take my family to places like Disney. My kids like Disney. We go to Florida. Um, and Aruba

Colie: 33:49

to California. I mean, come on, Lydia, I'm going to work on

Lydia: 33:52

been to California Disney. Oh, maybe someday. So I want to be able to take my family to cool places. I want to show my kids these, these neat experiences and that having the money to do that comfortably is part of success for me. I also, though, I am, I am a girl who thrives on feedback and I love thrilling my clients. I love. Just making people so happy that they send me emails like, you're so amazing. I can't even breathe. That's like my favorite email I got in the last couple of months. I just absolutely adore it. So thrilling my clients for me and not always with the photo. Sometimes it's just with the customer service experience and communication and being really clear. That's a big part of success for me. Just finding more of my ideal clients, people who don't care about that. Everybody's staring at the camera picture and care more about the ones where they're looking in each other's eyes and your kid is looking up at you and adoring you. All of that is part of. Success for me is finding more of the right kind of clients and then finding busy season, off season harmony. I don't even think balance is the right word because there is really no

Colie: 34:57

no balance.

Lydia: 34:58

There's no work work life balance for me. It is just harmony. And we haven't talked about this very much, but I'm extremely lucky that my husband takes a lot of the load of the domestic. And he always has because the comedian works mostly weekends. But he, he does all the laundry, he does all the grocery shopping, all the errand running. We do have a very lovely person who cleans because my husband cannot clean the house to my satisfaction. But, uh, he does carry a lot of that load, and that's the only way that this works for me.

Colie: 35:30

Did you catch that episode that I did with Lindsay Dryer on Fair Play?

Lydia: 35:34

I've only listened to the first, like, quarter of it, uh, but it's still in my queue, but,

Colie: 35:40

I mean, but just talking about like, you're talking about finding balance in the business, but a lot of it starts with balance at home. And so you do really have to have those kinds of supports and that understanding with your partner so that you are able to not only work at your nine to five, but then also run this thriving part time photography business. So. I was about to ask you about capacity and boundaries, but I think you pretty much just touched on that in that your partner really helps you make the time and the space for your photography business. But what other kind of boundaries do you have either for yourself or your clients?

Lydia: 36:17

Yeah, so this year for the first time I established three days out of the week that I will shoot. So I will shoot on Sundays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. My daughter has volleyball on Tuesdays, and Friday nights my brain is fried from my full time job. Just fried. And Saturdays are for going out to dinner with my family. So I have established the days of the week that I will not flex on. And Even when we have, I, I leave an entire week of October open for weather reschedules because I know that I'm not going to miss my daughter's volleyball games. I'm just not. So I have to plan. I have to plan for those things. I have to plan for the unexpected. So. That helps me, however, gosh, you know, it is, saying no is so hard. I set my goal number for each month of sessions that I want to do. And when I hit that, I have to start saying no to people. And gosh, when somebody's like, Oh, but it's, your work is so beautiful. It's so flattering to be wanted. It makes it even harder to say no, but I've gotten better at it. Um, and I've started partnering with a couple other local photographers that I can funnel some of this overflow work to. That I trust and I know that they'll be treated well, so then at least, um, I can, I have something I can do with these folks other than just saying like, no, bye, see you maybe next year. Um, but, gosh, it's hard. Boundaries, boundaries are hard. They're always going to be hard, but, ugh, blech. Mm

Colie: 37:41

but, and sometimes I just want to encourage a listening audience because it might not apply to Lydia. But like, you don't always have to say no, you can give them an alternative. So if, I mean, there are very few things that are like stuck in the mud. Like for example, I told you I can't do fresh 48s anymore. At least I didn't do them forever. I mean, I can't tell my client to hold their baby in until the next month when I can photograph them. I mean, that's not a thing. But is it possible for you to tell some of these people that are like, Oh, well, I want a September session. Okay, well, I'm booked for September. So let's think about October. Let's think about November. And then some of you guys, I, at the end of every fall session, if like, I'm completely booked or my mentoring students would be booked. I was like, but did you offer them like a session in January? And they're like, no, well, they wanted it for Christmas cards. Okay. Did you know that people send New Year's cards? Okay. Like, I think that sometimes we are just so stuck in what we think is like the norm and that clients themselves are so set on something and most of the time they're not like the first time that I ever proposed to someone. Yeah. I'm sorry. I can't I can't squeeze you in before Christmas, but, you know, I actually send my cards in January. Have you ever thought about doing that? And I can photograph you the 2nd week of January and I can have like, a selection of 5 images done really quickly so that you could choose those for your cards and they were like, well, no. That's pretty cool. I mean, we just always send Christmas cards. Okay, like, do you think people open your Christmas cards before Christmas? I don't know. I don't. I mean, when my clients send me their Christmas cards, I have like a stack and then I go through them. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, it's not that someone's timeline for receiving your Christmas card is something that you should base your session or something else on. Like,

Lydia: 39:28

you're absolutely right. I, I've been trying to sort of nudge more clients toward in home family sessions because I stopped shooting outdoors the first week of November because I don't know what it's like in Colorado, but Iowa goes brown. It is so ugly. And then the weather is just disgusting. So like yesterday was 70 some degrees and Sunday is going to be like a high of 32. So yay.

Colie: 39:48

I mean, we really haven't hit that kind of weather here yet, but I am sometimes really happy about the snow. Have you ever been surprised by snow during an in home session? I had this 1 amazing session. I think it was November 2 years ago. Showed up at their house and before the end of the session, it was snowing. And so then we went in their backyard and had, you know, like a snowball fight and the kids were making, yeah, I mean, it was just so cute. And that is just one of those like surprise and delight things that can possibly happen in Colorado in winter. And so, you know, when I'm sharing images, they're always like, but what would we do? Okay. But like, if you want outside photos, we can always hang out in your backyard and If it happens to snow even better,

Lydia: 40:31

Even better. I love in home sessions. I wish that they were a little bit more popular in my area, because not only do you have all of the people that mean the most to you, but you have the space that means the most to you. And if you move or as you know, you're like, Oh, remember when we had that picture on the wall? I mean, it's just another layer of memories for your photos.

Colie: 40:52

it is. And so every time someone says something like that, Lydia, I'm like, but, you know, I've never actually photographed people outside. Like, I have legitimately never had someone hire me to do an outdoor portrait session. I have always just shown in home images. And if that's what you want, great. And if you don't. I'm not the photographer for you. And I mean, I have like one of my clients, Ashley, she is an amazing outdoor photographer. And when you were talking about referring people, like, literally my autoresponder for photography right now, if you say families, it automatically sends you her information if you say newborns. Oh, I'm trying to get you because I need to, I need to hold a baby soon, or I think I might just die. But, I mean, you know, It's really good if you have people like that. And the thing that I tell people when they're trying to transition or add in home sessions to their fall sessions, like we're already about to be in November, the time for you to start showing in home sessions to get people booked for January, February, and March. is September. And I know that that seems counterintuitive, but like if all you're doing is showing your amazing fall sessions through fall, no one is going to be able to imagine what it would be like to be in home in winter. So you got to start showing that stuff really, really early.

Lydia: 42:06

Yeah. I changed the hero image on my website to an in house session, uh, last month, because

Colie: 42:11

that's why you're my kind of person. Good Lord.

Lydia: 42:14

I've kind of thought since I started listening to your podcast that you're my spirit animal and you just didn't know it.

Colie: 42:19

Oh, it's so nice. Also,

Lydia: 42:22

a lot. So

Colie: 42:23

Oh, we do both. I'm surprised. We actually haven't sworn more in this in this conversation. Maybe we got it all out before we hit record. I'm not sure, but going back, like, if you want to do more in home sessions, I would just highly recommend that you pick your 3 favorite outdoor families that you've worked with and send them a thing. That's like, hey, I would really love to do more in home sessions. Would you be interested in doing 1 this this winter or whatever it is, because people who love working with you are probably going to jump at the chance at trying something else with you to possibly see if it's better. I mean, I love indoor. I mean, trying to figure out outdoor sessions brings me to a level of anxiety, which is not good for anyone. Like I'm always worried about whether or not I scheduled it too early with the mountain sun and like whether or not it's going to be too windy for the kids and whether or not we're going to have to spend a lot of time warming them up. I mean, I will do outdoor sessions with my previous clients because it's like clockwork. Like one time I showed up at an outdoor session for someone that I had probably photographed in their home, like five times. Lydia, when I tell you, I got everything that I needed in 10 minutes and didn't know what to do. Like, me and the kids just started playing tag and I was literally chasing them, taking pictures with my camera, but I mean, that's the other thing that I've learned is if you are meeting the families in their homes and you're getting comfortable with them, on those occasions where they want me to go outside, it's so quick and so easy and, you know, I can get what I need very quickly and then not be outside anymore. Because. I don't do

Lydia: 43:57

you're not an outdoor girl.

Colie: 43:59

No, I'm not. Okay. So I think that we have hit so much related to systems and part time photographers, but do you, is there anything else that's like in your brain? That's like, Oh, I really want part time photographers to know this.

Lydia: 44:14

Yes, okay, there's one more thing. And, and we haven't talked about Airtable, and I won't go down that rabbit hole because I think it's a bit too complex for your

Colie: 44:21

Lydia, I think you should just come another time. I think we can have a whole air table conversation. Yes.

Lydia: 44:26

Oh my gosh. I'm so in love with Airtable. Okay. So, um, the only other piece that I think we talked about the priority being the booking friction, and we didn't really talk about the lead process, but there's one concept that I think a lot of folks, I don't know if they just don't know about it. They ignore it from higher ed. There is a statistic that a student will enroll. I don't know what the number is. I'm going to make it up 75 percent of the time at the first school that gets back to them. Yeah.

Colie: 44:49

Yes. It

Lydia: 44:51

This speed to lead concept applies in photography too. And I've had multiple clients tell me when I ask, you know, how did you find me? Why did you book me? Which is always part of my booking process too and my intake. They say, you had the best email etiquette of any photographer that I talked to. You got back to me faster than anybody else. And, and, It just seems like a no brainer to me. I, even if I can't get back to them right away, even just a tiny little note that says, Hey, hi there. So great to get your email. I just wanted to let you know, I am headed to an XYZ with my children. When I get back, I'm going to respond to your email. You'll hear from me in about four hours. Even something that small will help. Just establish trust and, and the trust is, is huge and getting back to people quickly also lets them know that you're going to do other things that you say you're going to do quickly throughout the entire experience of doing, like, uh, of a project, of a session, you're going to return the photos when you say, well, all of that starts with responding to a lead. Yeah,

Colie: 45:49

Yes. I mean, I don't think that people, um, think about clarity and confidence enough when it comes to your systems and how you treat your clients and the client experience. If you are clear from the beginning, you're clear about your pricing, you're clear about your process, you're clear about your expectations, all of that, that is going to build confidence in them in spending a big amount of money with you. But also, like you said, confidence that you are going to deliver. What you say when you say, and so it sounds to me, though, that that email that you just described was something that you are sending manually. So do you not have an automated lead response?

Lydia: 46:29

I do have an automated inquiry response that goes and there's a customized based on a session type that they said they were interested in. But if something is happening in my world where I know that they inquired at 8 o'clock at night, and I'm not going to be able to sit down to customize that templatized response, like the actual one that's more personal, until the following morning. Then I will, you know, while I'm laying in bed on the HoneyBook mobile app, I will fire off a real quick, you know, that little tiny email, just a couple sentences, just to let them know, Hey, I'm here. I see you and you are on my radar. Yeah.

Colie: 47:03

All right, Lydia, this has been amazing. Um, I am so glad that you reached out in my inbox. I mean, cause we're always chatting about things, but when you pitched this idea for this, for this episode, I was like, yeah, of course, because I feel like I'm even coming from a different place. I talk about being a part time photographer in the beginning all the time, but I didn't have a full time job. Like my full time job was Chloe. So I do think that it's very different. And I really do appreciate you bringing your perspective to the podcast.

Lydia: 47:31

I'm, I'm happy to be here. I love, I love sharing my perspective on this very weird way of doing photography.

Colie: 47:37

Yeah. So if the listening audience wants to connect with you, where is the best place to find you?

Lydia: 47:43

Oh gosh. Well, I'm, I'm on the socials. I will admit that I don't spend a ton of time there,

Colie: 47:48

You don't have a ton of time, Lydia, let's be honest.

Lydia: 47:50

this, this is true. This is true. Uh, you can find me on Facebook at Apollo and Ivy Photography. You can also find me on Instagram. My handle is Lydia underscore Apollo and Ivy. You can also just find me on Apollo and Ivy. com. You can reach out through the contact form. Um, my email address and even my phone are out there. So I'd love to talk to anybody, anybody who wants to talk part time stuff. I am your girl. Let's talk systems all day long.

Colie: 48:15

Everyone. I hope that you have gotten a lot out of this episode. And like I said, we are going to have Lydia back on so that we can talk about like what I deem is the second stage of managing your client data, which is Airtable. Yeah. All right. That's it for this episode. See you next time.