You're Sending Emails. Why Isn't Anyone Clicking?

Jocelyn of Scale Your Resonance wants every one of her Best Seller clients making five figures from email, and yes, that includes me. Bold goal? Absolutely. In this episode, we dig into her new app, Email Studio. She built it for herself first, but you don't need to be a Bestie to use it, because it's open to the public and she's on a mission to get 100 users in the first 100 days. It's how I'm making email part of an always-selling marketing plan, and it can be part of yours too.

Because here's my confession: I sometimes email my list multiple times a day, my click rates are in the toilet, and almost none of my sales come from email. Jocelyn, who helped me launch this podcast four years ago, tells me how to fix it. We talk about the missing proof in your emails, why your best emails start out loud, and why "I'll just use Claude" isn't the same thing as a tool built on real expertise.

In this episode:

Why emails without client proof don't convert, and why the small progress wins count just as much as the big results
How a miserable afternoon writing emails in an airport lounge turned into a voice-note-first writing process
The moment a stack of AI skills needed to become an actual app
How to keep AI-assisted emails sounding like you and not like a press release
Why real users and real feedback are what separate a tool that works from a tool that just exists
What you get from a tool built on someone's frameworks that you won't get from plain Claude or ChatGPT

Links mentioned:

Email Studio (my affiliate link) → https://coliejames.com/jocelyn
My episode with Kara on why everyone's an AI expert now → https://coliejames.com/everyones-an-ai-expert-ft-kara-duncan/
My episode with Annemie Tonken on AI and IP → https://coliejames.com/beyond-diy-chatgpt-the-human-first-ai-blogging-tool-for-intentional-creatives/

For a limited time, grab Email Studio for $199 for six months (normally $299) → https://coliejames.com/jocelyn

Curious how I actually use this thing, or where I've written emails lately (volleyball bleachers included)? DM me on Threads: @coliejames

Transcript

Colie: 00:00:00

Hey, y'all.

: 00:00:01

Welcome back.

: 00:00:02

So I have a confession to make.

: 00:00:04

Today's guest lives, like, 20

miles from me, and I have never

: 00:00:08

actually met her in person.

: 00:00:10

And I was really hoping that by the

time she came for this interview,

: 00:00:13

that we were gonna have seen

each other in person and hugged.

: 00:00:17

And then I was like, "It's okay.

: 00:00:18

We're gonna record this episode,

and then I'm gonna do it before."

: 00:00:21

But literally, we are recording this,

like, three days before it's gonna

: 00:00:25

air, so that's not gonna happen again.

: 00:00:27

But today's guest has been in my

world for more than four years.

: 00:00:32

Um, I actually hired her to

put this podcast out into the

: 00:00:36

world a gazillion years ago.

: 00:00:39

And now she has shifted, just like a lot

of people do, into a different niche, a

: 00:00:44

different offer, and I'm obsessed with

what she currently does in her business.

: 00:00:49

And fun fact, she is the reason

that I am currently obsessed

: 00:00:53

with all things AI coding.

: 00:00:55

So Jocelyn, finally, welcome

to Business First Creatives.

: 00:00:59

Jocelyn: That might be like the biggest

honorary part because you have made

: 00:01:03

that your whole personality now.

: 00:01:06

Colie: I have, and I, I tell people this,

I even posted it in the new group that

: 00:01:11

we joined together, the CEO Social Club.

: 00:01:13

But Jocelyn is the reason that I

built the Systems Professor app and

: 00:01:17

why I now have four other tools that

are, like, so close to being done.

: 00:01:22

In fact, one of them I put two beta

users in today and yesterday, Jocelyn.

: 00:01:26

But the whole reason that I built

it was when I saw what Jocelyn

: 00:01:30

built, I was literally like, "If

Jocelyn built this, so can I.

: 00:01:34

Why am I waiting?"

: 00:01:35

And then I sat down and literally voice

noted Jocelyn as I drove from Boulder

: 00:01:40

home after having, uh, brunch with one of

my clients, and I got home and I started

: 00:01:46

coding, and 12 hours later, I had a

fully fledged actionable app, and I was

: 00:01:53

just like, "Why did it take me so long?"

: 00:01:56

But let's take a step backwards, Jocelyn.

: 00:01:58

I originally hired you to help me put

this podcast out into the world, and

: 00:02:02

I think I've told this story on the

podcast before, but I'm gonna say it

: 00:02:06

'cause it's been over four years now.

: 00:02:08

I hired Jocelyn because I met her in Done!

: 00:02:11

In a Day, and she at that

point had a VIP day related to

: 00:02:16

getting your podcast published.

: 00:02:19

And I'll never forget, we got on

our VIP day, and I was like, "Okay,

: 00:02:22

but how long is this gonna take?"

: 00:02:24

And Jocelyn was like, "You know, our

goal is, like, six to eight weeks."

: 00:02:26

I was like, "No, three weeks.

: 00:02:28

This has to be done.

: 00:02:29

Like, if I could, I would

publish it on Friday.

: 00:02:31

Like, let's go."

: 00:02:32

And she was like, "You're

gonna need more time."

: 00:02:34

And no, it took less than three weeks

because I want it out into the world

: 00:02:39

because I've been sitting on this

podcast idea for what felt like forever."

: 00:02:43

But Jocelyn, what made you go initially

from podcasting to case studies?

: 00:02:49

'Cause we're not even at

your current offer yet.

: 00:02:51

We're gonna take that hop first.

: 00:02:53

Jocelyn: Um, okay, so podcasting to

case studies was really when I had my

: 00:02:59

podcast stuff going, case study episodes

were the number one highest converting.

: 00:03:04

It was something I built into the

strategy on everybody's podcast.

: 00:03:07

You're gonna have your educational

episodes, you're gonna have your

: 00:03:10

case study interviews, and then

you're gonna have guest interviews.

: 00:03:13

Those…

: 00:03:13

That was, like, the three things

that made up your strategy, and they

: 00:03:16

each served a different pur- purpose.

: 00:03:18

And the case study interviews just

crushed, and then those clients

: 00:03:23

were writing really good emails

because they had all of that

: 00:03:26

data from their case studies.

: 00:03:28

But I realized other people I was

helping with emails, because they

: 00:03:32

didn't have a podcast, they weren't

doing case study interviews, they

: 00:03:35

didn't have, like, case studies.

: 00:03:37

And I was like, "You guys, you don't even

have, like, screenshots or testimonials

: 00:03:42

or just even, like, basic wins from,

like, week one progress, month one

: 00:03:46

progress to just even include wins or

any kind of results in your emails."

: 00:03:53

Like, 'cause I'm a big advocate of,

like, not just the big, sexy results at

: 00:03:57

the end of, like, working with somebody

for 12 months or something like that,

: 00:04:00

but I'm about, like, the little progress

results, the little implementation

: 00:04:03

results, like, the more proof you can

provide about each part of your offer.

: 00:04:08

And people didn't have anything, and I

was like, "Well, that's why this content's

: 00:04:12

not converting, 'cause you have no proof

to back up anything you're saying."

: 00:04:15

And so then I made the case study offer.

: 00:04:18

Um, and it started off as kind of like

it was kind of like a VIP day upfront.

: 00:04:24

We did a sprint, like three-hour

intensive type of thing, and then, um,

: 00:04:28

I offered them a bit of support in that

first month to get the collection system

: 00:04:32

going, get the case studies collected,

and write their first couple of case

: 00:04:36

studies, and then they were off on

their own, and now it's over to email.

: 00:04:43

Colie: Okay, so let's talk about

email, because you firmly believe that,

: 00:04:46

like, all business owners should be

making significant revenue from email.

: 00:04:53

And guys, I bought Jocelyn's app.

: 00:04:56

I also joined her offer Best Seller

because I am not afraid of sending emails.

: 00:05:01

If you're on my email list, you know this.

: 00:05:03

I will email you multiple times a day,

but I am not selling a significant

: 00:05:09

amount of any of my offers through

email, which is still quite puzzling

: 00:05:13

considering how often I email them.

: 00:05:15

Do you know where the sales come from?

: 00:05:17

Sales come from this podcast.

: 00:05:19

And I will email my list about podcast

episodes, and they don't get clicks.

: 00:05:24

But I did find that transition when

I first saw you offering Best Seller.

: 00:05:29

I was like, "Oh, well, emails.

: 00:05:30

I mean, I'm sending emails."

: 00:05:32

And it wasn't until I started

actually listening to your message

: 00:05:35

where you're like, "You're sending

emails and people are not clicking."

: 00:05:39

I was like, "Yeah, my click

rates are in the toilet.

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: 00:05:42

That's true."

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: 00:05:43

And then you would, you know, you would

say, "You need to be sharing your proof."

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: 00:05:45

And I'm like, "Okay, but I do that

all day, every day of the week."

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: 00:05:49

I'm like, "But yeah, it's not converting."

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: 00:05:51

And so did you end up having…

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Like, was the transition, if you will,

from case studies to email, did a lot

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: 00:05:59

of people follow you in that were the

people that you helped with case studies

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: 00:06:03

the same people that ended up following

you into Best Seller to continue to get

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: 00:06:08

your help from email, or did that end up

being a different audience completely?

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Jocelyn: Um, it was kind of different.

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: 00:06:15

I would say a portion of people

continued into Best Seller.

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: 00:06:20

Um, but my case study offer typically

attracted, like, somebody more

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: 00:06:25

established, b- where they were at

the point of like, "Whoa, my case

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: 00:06:30

studies, like, I know I get my clients

incredible results, but my offer

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: 00:06:35

looks like, you know, I've got my

first five clients," type of vibe.

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So they were like, "Oh, I've

got lots of clients in here.

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: 00:06:41

I really need to be not only,

like, capturing their end

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results, like, I need to see their

progress the whole way through."

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Especially also, you know, people are

very mindful of, like, wanting to make

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: 00:06:51

sure the majority of their clients get

results, so when they start scaling and

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it's not just 5 or 10 clients anymore,

and it's 20, 50, 100 clients, they're

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like, "Oh my gosh, like, how am I

keeping track of all of that," right?

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So that system also helped with that.

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So it was a, it was a bit different,

but I, I partly did it because I

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was like, "Oh, now I'm seeing them.

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: 00:07:11

They have these incredible case

studies, but now their other emails

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are kinda carrying the weight."

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So now they need, you know, the

full, like, the full sales content,

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and I've always done a lot of

sales content related stuff.

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: 00:07:25

Um, but I was just like, "Okay, you

know, the case study offer is just

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: 00:07:30

so, so niche and such a specific

time period and things like that.

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: 00:07:34

I can help with all of the sales

content, including case studies in a

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larger p- you know, program and offer

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Colie: And I mean, being in Best

Seller, you are not teaching

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: 00:07:44

us how to make case studies.

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: 00:07:45

Like, I don't recall that there's

a specific lesson on that.

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: 00:07:48

But there is a lot of content on

collecting your results and using it

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: 00:07:52

in your emails and, like, doing this.

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: 00:07:53

So I always love to hear about the

trajectory of how someone works with

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: 00:07:57

someone, and I really do see the

path for you of you were helping

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: 00:08:01

people put podcasts into the world,

and then it was like, okay, but we

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: 00:08:04

don't just talk at people to talk.

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: 00:08:06

Like, there has to be some conversion

going on, and then we're doing the

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: 00:08:09

case studies, which is showing people

the results that we're getting.

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: 00:08:12

And then you're like, okay, but like,

again, it can't just be limited to

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: 00:08:16

these one, two, three podcast episodes

where you're interviewing your clients.

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: 00:08:21

You need to be sharing this

in other mediums, and so that

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: 00:08:24

brought you over to Best Seller.

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: 00:08:26

But it is interesting that you feel

like the case study offer was for

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: 00:08:31

more established business owners, and

Best Seller is for people who are less

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: 00:08:36

established, because email is something

that you should be using to communicate

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: 00:08:41

with your wider audience, even if you

haven't helped 50, 100, 200 clients

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: 00:08:47

yet to get the results that you want.

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: 00:08:49

So let's talk about the app.

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: 00:08:51

So before we hit record, you were

like, "Well, originally I just

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: 00:08:54

created this app for my Best Seller

clients because they needed help."

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But like, what…

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: 00:08:59

Do you remember a moment or, like,

when you had this aha of, "Okay, I'm

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: 00:09:03

teaching them how to write better

emails, but how can I make it easier?"

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: 00:09:08

Was there, like, a moment

that just was an aha moment?

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'Cause I don't think that you

ever set out to be like, "Ooh,

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let me go code something today."

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: 00:09:17

I don't think you had the, um, the

vision of being a SaaS founder.

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Jocelyn: No.

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: 00:09:22

Um, it, it, it really started with myself.

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: 00:09:28

Um, obviously seeing my clients,

but it started with myself too,

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: 00:09:31

because, like, I, I know what goes

into a high converting email, right?

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: 00:09:35

Like, I have the sales messaging,

the positioning, the structure,

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like, all of the copy tactics,

like, all of that in my head.

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I know what goes into it, and it

still takes me a long time to open

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a Google Doc and write emails.

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And I send a lot of emails.

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I run campaigns, which are large sets

of batches of emails for a warm-up

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period, for wait list period, for open

cart period, for all these different

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things that have so many emails.

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: 00:10:00

And I remember it was, like, last fall,

um, I needed to write campaign emails,

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and we were going on vacation, and I was

writing emails while in the business class

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: 00:10:10

lounge while my husband was enjoying his

mimosas while flying from Denver to LAX.

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Um, on that flight, I was like, you

know, I was like, "Great, I won't

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: 00:10:21

have anything to do for four hours.

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Let me get in the zone and just do that."

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And it was miserable, because I was, like,

just trying to pump things out and just

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get it done, and it was taking me so long.

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And then I was like, there was a

particular email when I came back

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that I was writing and working on,

um, where I just, like, couldn't

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get my thought out of my head.

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So I was like, "You know what?

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Let me take Tucker for a walk."

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Tucker's my dog.

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We went on a walk, and I was like,

"I'm just gonna voice note it out

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: 00:10:46

into the voice memo app, it, um,

that, like, comes on the iPhone.

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I'll grab the transcription, and then I'll

just be able to, like, find the gems."

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Like, 'cause I just needed

to talk out the concept.

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That worked really well.

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I got home, put it into a Google

Doc, and just started, like, revising

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it, and I was like, "That's how I

need to write emails from now on."

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So I started this whole

process by building individual

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Claude skills for myself.

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So I took one of the types of emails

that I wrote, I built a skill around

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it, and then created that skill

just for myself and just started

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using that one type of email.

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Because I was like, okay, taking

the transcript and putting it into

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the Google Doc still requires me to

do, like, a lot of restructuring, a

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lot of cutting, you know, parts that

rambled, like, I didn't get to the

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point until five minutes in, you know?

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Like, that type of thing.

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So there was still a lot of work to do.

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Um, so I developed the skill around

each type of email that I write so

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that it would be able to extract what

was in my rambling voice note, put it

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into the right flow, add in some, like,

conversion copy tactics in there, and

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then I wouldn't have to do as much

editing when I got back to my desk.

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And then it obviously led into the app.

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Colie: I mean, Jocelyn, I

literally can't believe that it

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took you that long to realize that

voice noting was where it's at.

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I guess as a podcaster, like I like

to talk, you know I like to talk.

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I'm always like, no.

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Like, and we discovered pretty early

on, 'cause I've had a blog writer

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now for, oh my gosh, like three

years, and it was really funny.

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'Cause you hire a blog writer and

they go do your research, right?

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And then they come back

to you with the topics.

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: 00:12:23

And it wasn't very far working with

Cara where she would bring me in,

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I'm like, "Oh, no, no, I already

have like a podcast episode on that.

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Here's the transcript."

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And then she would bring me more

topics and I'm like, "Well, actually,

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if you just look at this episode

and this episode, like that'll

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give you all my thoughts on that.

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Here you go."

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And so it didn't take us very

long to where I was like, "Here's

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what we're gonna do going forward.

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You're gonna give me a topic, and if I

don't already have a podcast episode, I

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will record one, or I will just give you

voice notes and then you can go write it."

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You having helped podcasters,

I just can't believe that voice

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noting didn't come to you earlier.

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Jocelyn: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, and it's interesting because

when I used to work full-time as

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a director of content for another

expert, I planned her monthly…

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I did all of her content, her

Instagram, her emails, her

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YouTube scripts, her IGTV scripts.

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Colie: That just dated when you worked

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Jocelyn: That is old.

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Like, all of her carousels, all

of her IG stories, all of her

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articles, like literally everything.

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And so what I did was I was either

referencing her curriculum or I was asking

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her to send me voice notes, and she would

just send them over via Slack, and I

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would listen or copy the transcript from

Slack and then have what I needed for,

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like, the content I needed for the month.

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So the app is built on what I used to do.

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I don't know why I never thought just

to do that myself when writing emails,

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because so much of us are just so much n-

more natural speaking about what we do.

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Like, we know what our expertise is.

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It's like when we sit down and now we're

trying to think about our expertise,

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think about, like, the right flow, think

about sentence structure, think about

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sales psychology and messaging and copy

tactics, that it all gets, like, jambled

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up and something that, like, should in

theory take us five minutes to answer,

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like, is taking us an hour because it's

like, computing everything at once.

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Colie: And the one thing about the

app, because a lot of people are

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like, "Okay, but Colie, like Jocelyn's

app, does it make you sound like AI?"

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I'm like, "No."

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But honestly, the thing that I am

screaming at it sometimes is, you

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are making that sound too formal.

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Like, I want my emails to

sound like rambling thoughts.

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I want it to sound like a conversation.

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I want it to sound very natural.

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Like, that is my style of communicating.

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And so yes, I want it to make me

sound smart, but sometimes it takes

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it like one level too far and I'm

like, "No, that's way too structured

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for me to have written that.

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Like, take it back two levels.

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Go back to what I actually told

you and pull my language back in."

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Like, you polished it, it's

great, but like, don't do that.

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Jocelyn: Yeah, and I will say, like,

it is AI, so sometimes it does,

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like, get … And sometimes I can

tell when, like, Claude's, like,

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updated their model, 'cause it runs,

you know, on … And I'm like, "Mm,

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these are a little bit different."

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So what I will do, Colie, is two things.

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Number one, I will build … We have,

in the writer area, there are quick

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edits where you can just hit something.

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So, like, there's one in case any AI

slop gets through the cracks there,

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even though I have, like, an 80,000-word

guidebook on what it's not allowed to do.

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: 00:15:33

You can just hit the, like, AI slop sweep

as a quick edit, and it'll pull that out.

280

: 00:15:37

But what I'll do in there is I will

add something that's like, "Make this

281

: 00:15:41

more conversational, make this more

chill, make this more in the words

282

: 00:15:45

that I gave you in the voice note."

283

: 00:15:46

So if that happens, we can just have,

like, that really quick edit there.

284

: 00:15:50

But also, if you haven't already

gone into your voice and tone area

285

: 00:15:54

and dialed up the tone on, like,

playfulness, conversational, chill

286

: 00:15:59

vibes, make sure you have it just

put it all the way to the max.

287

: 00:16:03

Colie: Do you know what I need you to do?

288

: 00:16:05

So I follow you religiously, right?

289

: 00:16:07

When you're posting in Slack, when

you're sending us emails, I'm like, "Oh

290

: 00:16:09

my gosh, like that's such a good idea.

291

: 00:16:10

Thank you for giving that to us."

292

: 00:16:12

But I think sometimes I don't go

back and like make the adjustment.

293

: 00:16:16

So like what you said about my brain,

like I don't think that I've touched

294

: 00:16:20

the dials at all because you added

those after I did my initial, um, brain.

295

: 00:16:25

And so unless it's like something

that I'm actively using, I think

296

: 00:16:29

I do forget to like go back in.

297

: 00:16:31

But I also just wanna put

like a quick sprinkle in here.

298

: 00:16:33

This is one of my favorite reasons for

buying something like this because the

299

: 00:16:39

way that you can integrate the feedback…

300

: 00:16:41

By the way, guys, uh, Jocelyn

actually gave me a prize because

301

: 00:16:45

I found the most bugs in the app.

302

: 00:16:47

I literally think that is so

much fun to like run through and

303

: 00:16:50

Jocelyn: got the big bug

304

: 00:16:51

Colie: yes, and like tell you

the things that are wrong.

305

: 00:16:53

And I…

306

: 00:16:53

One of the people that is doing

that for me, I added her in today.

307

: 00:16:57

She's like, "Oh yeah, I gotta go into the

app," and like, and I'm like, "Yes, and

308

: 00:17:00

anything that feels off, let me know."

309

: 00:17:03

Uh, but it's really good when you get

like real users in there because while

310

: 00:17:07

something makes sense to you in the

layout or the way that you've worded

311

: 00:17:10

it, when you get actual humans in there

and they're going through and they're

312

: 00:17:14

like, "Mm, I think I know what you meant

here, but like I don't think that it

313

: 00:17:17

came across the way that you wanted it

to, so can you change this one thing?"

314

: 00:17:20

But like, look, I told her what I wanted,

and I guarantee you by tomorrow morning

315

: 00:17:24

there's gonna be a new little thing

that's like, "Make more conversational."

316

: 00:17:28

It's one of, it, it's one of the

things that I did an episode with

317

: 00:17:32

Kara a couple weeks ago, and we

said everyone's an AI expert now.

318

: 00:17:37

And so I think anybody can pretty

much build anything now with AI,

319

: 00:17:41

but it doesn't mean that it's good.

320

: 00:17:43

It doesn't mean that it works as expected.

321

: 00:17:46

And like this is that like layer of

expertise that you will still bring

322

: 00:17:51

to the app that someone else doesn't

because, you know, you built it for

323

: 00:17:54

yourself, you built it on your email

frameworks and what they all do.

324

: 00:17:59

And so you have not just created something

that writes emails like everybody else.

325

: 00:18:03

It is definitely with your perspective,

with your frameworks, and that's what

326

: 00:18:07

makes the conversions so much better

when the app spits out the emails

327

: 00:18:12

Jocelyn: Yeah.

328

: 00:18:12

And I will say, like, it's,

this is not for, like, the

329

: 00:18:17

lighthearted to go out and build.

330

: 00:18:19

Yeah, like, and then I'm like, this

is like, it has been a beast, like,

331

: 00:18:24

because I wanna make sure that it's

at the point Colie's talking about.

332

: 00:18:27

Like, I knew on day one launching

it, 'cause I, I initially

333

: 00:18:31

launched it to clients first.

334

: 00:18:33

The version that went out to clients

a month before I even decided to

335

: 00:18:37

launch it publicly was day and night

different than what I launched to

336

: 00:18:41

the public, because just even having,

like, five really active people in

337

: 00:18:45

it gave me so much more feedback.

338

: 00:18:47

And I was like, "If this is gonna

be something that somebody actually

339

: 00:18:51

sticks with and is using every

single month to write their emails,

340

: 00:18:54

like, I've gotta step it up."

341

: 00:18:55

Launched it, but I take feedback.

342

: 00:18:58

I am active in the Slack channel

every day looking for anybody giving

343

: 00:19:02

me any kind of feedback on a new

feature that they want, whatever.

344

: 00:19:05

I'm using the app every day, so I'm

seeing different use cases, 'cause I'm

345

: 00:19:08

like, "Oh, I'm writing a funnel for

the first time since I've had this.

346

: 00:19:11

Oh, I'm doing this for the

first time and we need this."

347

: 00:19:13

So, like, I am shipping big and small

updates weekly, if not every other day.

348

: 00:19:20

It was definitely every single

hour, like, in the first month of

349

: 00:19:24

having new people come in and making

sure everything was, like, tight.

350

: 00:19:27

If there was a bug, like, fixing

it within literally an hour

351

: 00:19:31

of them telling me of that.

352

: 00:19:33

Um, and now it's at the point

where now I'm working on,

353

: 00:19:36

like, larger, sexier features.

354

: 00:19:38

But now I'm like, I roll them out

to my Best Seller clients before

355

: 00:19:41

the rest of the app users so that

we have a little triage so Colie

356

: 00:19:45

can go through and find all the bugs

357

: 00:19:47

before I roll it out to

358

: 00:19:48

Colie: Colie can go through.

359

: 00:19:49

That is honestly true.

360

: 00:19:51

Um, let's actually talk about the building

because, you know, I don't think that

361

: 00:19:55

people understand how time-intensive it

is, but I actually have a build document.

362

: 00:20:00

Did I share that with you?

363

: 00:20:01

Have you seen my build document?

364

: 00:20:02

Jocelyn: I don't think so

365

: 00:20:03

Colie: Okay, so I'm gonna send it to you

after this 'cause you need to create one

366

: 00:20:06

if you haven't created it, and you can go

367

: 00:20:07

Jocelyn: I just have texts

back to myself and notes in my

368

: 00:20:10

Colie: backwards.

369

: 00:20:11

It will actually work

from your GitHub commits.

370

: 00:20:14

That's actually what mine is

built on, so I have proof.

371

: 00:20:18

I have a timeline for every single

feature that I shipped and every time

372

: 00:20:22

that I updated and refined and all of it.

373

: 00:20:24

And so every couple days I'll just

tell it, "Update the build doc," and

374

: 00:20:28

it goes in and it adds, you know,

what I've done in the last few days.

375

: 00:20:32

And so it's been really good for me

'cause my app has been out for six weeks.

376

: 00:20:35

I mean, yours has been out for

even longer, but the Systems

377

: 00:20:38

Professor app, I, I can't remember

what order I did things in.

378

: 00:20:42

I don't remember.

379

: 00:20:42

I mean, I was so sleep deprived

getting four hours of sleep

380

: 00:20:45

a night, I, I don't know.

381

: 00:20:47

I don't have any idea what I

built for some days unless I go

382

: 00:20:50

look at this, this, um, document.

383

: 00:20:52

So I would really recommend that you go

and do it so that, you know, you can see

384

: 00:20:57

how long the different features took.

385

: 00:20:58

I, I think it's, I think it's interesting.

386

: 00:21:00

I think that it's, like, fascinating to

look at how people build these things.

387

: 00:21:03

But what was your initial build period?

388

: 00:21:07

Like, how long did it take you from

the moment that you started coding

389

: 00:21:10

until, like, the first iteration of

the working app was, like, there, even

390

: 00:21:15

if you were the only person using it?

391

: 00:21:17

Jocelyn: Yeah, I wanna say it was probably

like two weeks, but it was very much like

392

: 00:21:25

five different styles of emails.

393

: 00:21:28

Right now it's at like 30 plus.

394

: 00:21:30

Um, and it was only the voice note

feature and the voice and tone brain.

395

: 00:21:37

Like, there was not the planner, the

ideas, like anything that it does now.

396

: 00:21:43

It was just being able to like, okay,

the writing part takes so long, I

397

: 00:21:48

at least have ideas my human brain

came up with and things like that.

398

: 00:21:52

Let me just be able to write it in this

thing without needing to like, you know,

399

: 00:21:58

go into Claude and call in all of these

different skills to try to write it.

400

: 00:22:01

'Cause that was actually like the

point where I realized it needed to

401

: 00:22:03

be an app, was I had so many different

skills working together to make one.

402

: 00:22:09

Like, I have a subject line generator

skill, a PS line skill, the skill

403

: 00:22:14

for each of the different types of

emails, the skill for anti-AI slop.

404

: 00:22:18

Like, you know, all of those

different skills and I was like,

405

: 00:22:21

"Oh, to get the actual email I'm like

trying to call in like 50 skills,"

406

: 00:22:25

yeah, "at once for one email."

407

: 00:22:28

Yeah, and it was like, "Ugh,"

yeah, it was not liking that.

408

: 00:22:31

So that's when I was actually like, "Okay,

I think it needs to be an app where it can

409

: 00:22:35

like have a behind-the-scenes, like this

multi-step process, and then do that."

410

: 00:22:40

So that f- very, very first version was

just the voice note thing, and if you

411

: 00:22:43

go on my Instagram, there's a video.

412

: 00:22:45

And I'm like, "Am I Steve Jobs?"

413

: 00:22:48

Like because I felt like so innovative,

and I was like, I didn't even know

414

: 00:22:52

what I was capable of building, 'cause

I was just so excited that I even

415

: 00:22:56

was able to do anything like that.

416

: 00:23:01

Colie: I mean, and listen, just so that

you know that you're not alone, it was

417

: 00:23:04

almost two years ago when I created my

first GPT that built workflows, like

418

: 00:23:09

it designed the Dubsado workflows, and

I worked on that thing for like five

419

: 00:23:14

days straight, and it only had one job.

420

: 00:23:17

Take this thing that I told you

and like write the workflows.

421

: 00:23:20

And again, that's very technical.

422

: 00:23:22

It took me a really long time to

get it, you know, where I wanted

423

: 00:23:25

it, but five straight days.

424

: 00:23:27

And having done that and then built

my GPT to write emails for my clients

425

: 00:23:33

and like a bunch of other things, I

came to the same conclusion as you.

426

: 00:23:36

Because when people were working with

me in order to do their systems build,

427

: 00:23:40

they were doing a voice snapshot,

which is similar to your brain.

428

: 00:23:43

They were doing their voice and tone,

and then they were, you know, mapping

429

: 00:23:47

out their client journey in one GPT,

and then they had to take it from there

430

: 00:23:52

and copy and paste it into the other

one, 'cause connections weren't really a

431

: 00:23:55

thing when I first created these things.

432

: 00:23:57

And then it was giving

them the workflow build.

433

: 00:24:00

So I wanted to, number one, protect

my IP, and number two, I wanted

434

: 00:24:05

everything to talk to each other.

435

: 00:24:06

I was exhausted myself when I was

helping a client copy and paste from

436

: 00:24:11

one to the next, and it was just like,

oh my gosh, I'm spending so much time

437

: 00:24:14

sitting at the computer doing one thing

in one GPT, putting it in another.

438

: 00:24:18

I was like, I just, I need an app.

439

: 00:24:19

And it had been on my list of things to do

for like six or seven months until I saw

440

: 00:24:24

your app and I was like, "You know what?

441

: 00:24:26

I have a birthday sabbatical.

442

: 00:24:28

I don't have any clients

for the next two weeks.

443

: 00:24:30

Let's see what we can do."

444

: 00:24:32

And you know, I was really proud

of the end result, like you.

445

: 00:24:35

I was like, okay, I feel like

my first iteration was a little

446

: 00:24:38

further along than yours though,

447

: 00:24:39

Jocelyn: Yeah.

448

: 00:24:40

Colie: because I had all of those things

that I had built before and I was like,

449

: 00:24:43

ooh, if I just put it all together.

450

: 00:24:46

And I personally realized, which I'm

pretty sure you did too, like what I

451

: 00:24:51

was able to put together in the app

was actually so much better than I ever

452

: 00:24:55

could have imagined, especially with

the mapping of your client journey.

453

: 00:24:59

Like visually, it is just so much

better than anything that they were

454

: 00:25:04

doing with a piece of paper and

a pen or even the Notion planner.

455

: 00:25:08

Jocelyn: It's such a good point though

because, like, that, I mean, that was…

456

: 00:25:11

This is why we built these tools is

because implementation of these things,

457

: 00:25:16

the learning curve of, like, how to

map out your voice, how to, you know,

458

: 00:25:20

sequence out your client experience,

how to write high-converting emails.

459

: 00:25:24

Like, the learning curve there, the time

it took to, like, first watch videos, and

460

: 00:25:30

then learn that, and then follow this,

and then get it reviewed, and then make…

461

: 00:25:34

Is, like, so long, and as business

owners, it's like, "Well, how can

462

: 00:25:37

we solve the problems that are,

like, keeping that there," right?

463

: 00:25:41

And so that's why I think these are

very well-received tools and will

464

: 00:25:45

continue to be because it's like you

took something that has such a high

465

: 00:25:50

learning curve and such, like, a thing

that do- Like, you, if you have to

466

: 00:25:54

learn it, like, you have to watch the

videos or you have to do that, you know?

467

: 00:25:58

And if we can reduce that or, like,

eliminate unnecessary steps and you start

468

: 00:26:03

learning by doing, and you start learning

by just, like, seeing it be done for you

469

: 00:26:07

and pieces like that, then it's like,

"Oh my gosh, it's so much easier now."

470

: 00:26:12

Like, and that's our goal as

business owners is to solve those

471

: 00:26:14

problems, make things faster, make

things easier, et cetera, you know?

472

: 00:26:18

So, like, that's the part of my brain

that gets really lit up because I'm

473

: 00:26:22

like, I like to s- I'm a Virgo sun,

Virgo rising, so, like, very much

474

: 00:26:27

coded that I like to solve problems.

475

: 00:26:30

So I'm looking for, like, how can we just,

like, solve whatever that problem is and

476

: 00:26:34

make it as easy as possible for people?

477

: 00:26:37

Colie: Now, I didn't

think I was Steve Jobs.

478

: 00:26:39

I just realized I have to

come back around to this.

479

: 00:26:41

I didn't have that moment, but when I told

my husband what I built and I showed it to

480

: 00:26:45

him, he goes, "Oh my God, are you gonna,

like, sell it in the Google App Store?"

481

: 00:26:49

I was like, "No."

482

: 00:26:50

And then I was like, "Oh."

483

: 00:26:53

And then I showed it to my podcast

manager and she's like, "Are you

484

: 00:26:56

gonna, are you gonna sell this?

485

: 00:26:57

Are you gonna build it for other people?"

486

: 00:26:59

I was like, "No."

487

: 00:27:00

And then I took a shower and I

was like, "Oh, actually, I really

488

: 00:27:04

do enjoy building these things.

489

: 00:27:05

May- maybe I will actually build

some things for other people."

490

: 00:27:08

So I mean, I feel like not only did

I create an app that helped me run my

491

: 00:27:12

business better, helped me work with my

clients better, like you said, like, I

492

: 00:27:16

have a whole suite of SaaS products at

this point that are gonna be launched

493

: 00:27:20

by the end of the year, and it just…

494

: 00:27:22

I don't know that any of it would've been

possible if I hadn't just seen the Email

495

: 00:27:28

Studio app that you created and was,

like, so inspired by everything you did.

496

: 00:27:33

And you know what?

497

: 00:27:34

I feel like I should tell you about one of

the features that I have in mind, because

498

: 00:27:40

you should probably, um, put it in yours.

499

: 00:27:42

Yes.

500

: 00:27:43

So this wouldn't be for, like,

your email at people because,

501

: 00:27:46

you know, they just, they're…

502

: 00:27:47

I, I don't wanna say they're

renting the app from you, but, you

503

: 00:27:50

know, it's just a subscription.

504

: 00:27:51

But one thing that you might wanna

think about for the Best Seller

505

: 00:27:54

people is, you know, when we're

submitting emails to you for review,

506

: 00:27:58

we're, like, copying and pasting them

and putting them in a Google Doc.

507

: 00:28:01

In mine, when my people write their emails

and they save them to the library, there's

508

: 00:28:05

a little button that says Send to Colie,

and they click the button, and then they

509

: 00:28:08

can choose up to 10, 'cause I don't want

people sending me a gazillion emails.

510

: 00:28:12

But I even recently did it where

they send it to me, I send them

511

: 00:28:16

back their feedback, and then if

they revise it and they resubmit it,

512

: 00:28:20

it kinda looks like a Google Doc.

513

: 00:28:21

Like, it shows me their original,

and then it shows me their edits so

514

: 00:28:25

that I'm not trying to guess what

I told them to fix, how they fixed

515

: 00:28:29

it, and if the new email works.

516

: 00:28:31

But I could totally see that

working for us Best Seller people.

517

: 00:28:34

I mean, very selfishly, I'm, I want

it for myself, because every time I'm

518

: 00:28:38

like, "Oh, well then d- send the emails

to Jocelyn," I gotta go put them in a

519

: 00:28:41

Google Doc, and then I gotta send them.

520

: 00:28:44

Jocelyn: I'm at least working on a Google

Doc download option where you can export

521

: 00:28:49

them, so at least bare minimum that.

522

: 00:28:51

Um, because I do have some people who

are, um, number one, who have VAs that

523

: 00:28:56

schedule their emails, and they, only Kit

and OnCharge are able to one-click draft

524

: 00:29:02

Colie: my favorite thing you've built.

525

: 00:29:04

No bullshit.

526

: 00:29:04

I was in the car the other day and

voice noted myself an email, and

527

: 00:29:08

it wrote it, and then I clicked the

button, and it went to Encharge, and

528

: 00:29:11

then I opened Encharge on my phone.

529

: 00:29:13

And for me, it is a little different.

530

: 00:29:14

I don't know what the kit looks like, but

in Encharge, like it brings it over in a

531

: 00:29:19

blank email that has no template, and we

don't have templates that we can apply.

532

: 00:29:23

So what I had to do was create a

brand-new snippet to be my footer and

533

: 00:29:28

a brand-new snippet to be my header.

534

: 00:29:30

And so when it brings the email in, I'm

just adding the header, adding the footer,

535

: 00:29:35

and then I can schedule it and make it go.

536

: 00:29:37

But no, when you…

537

: 00:29:38

When I…

538

: 00:29:38

Oh my gosh, I was in love.

539

: 00:29:40

I'm like, I don't ever…

540

: 00:29:41

C- can you tell copying and pasting

is like the bane of my existence?

541

: 00:29:45

I think I've mentioned that

542

: 00:29:48

I fucking hate the amount of time that it

takes me to copy and paste between tools.

543

: 00:29:53

You know, just I hate it.

544

: 00:29:55

It takes so much

545

: 00:29:56

Jocelyn: Yeah.

546

: 00:29:57

And then so, like, a lot of

people where they can't do the

547

: 00:29:59

one click, they have their VA,

you know, scheduling their emails.

548

: 00:30:02

But it's like, how can I get my

VA just, like, a batch of these

549

: 00:30:06

so she doesn't have to, like,

look through the app or something?

550

: 00:30:09

Or I have a couple clients who, who

are actually using it with consent with

551

: 00:30:13

their done-for-you clients, and so they

wanna be able to give those emails to

552

: 00:30:17

those clients to review, but I don't

have, like, a review function in the app

553

: 00:30:23

in that, like, done-for-you way, 'cause

there's not enough people doing that yet.

554

: 00:30:26

If we get there, I promise

I will do that for you

555

: 00:30:29

Colie: think it should be an add-on.

556

: 00:30:30

Yes

557

: 00:30:31

Jocelyn: but, um, but yeah, so I am

working on something like that so we

558

: 00:30:35

can at least, like, export things into a

Google Doc really easily so that we can

559

: 00:30:40

do that.

560

: 00:30:40

Colie: so let's actually bring it back

around to one of the features that I

561

: 00:30:43

think people should care about the most,

and I think I had the most input about

562

: 00:30:47

it when you, when you put it out there.

563

: 00:30:49

Um, Jocelyn has found a way

for us to not only do your…

564

: 00:30:53

I call it a voice snapshot, she calls

it voice and tone, your, your voice,

565

: 00:30:56

your tone, your brand document.

566

: 00:30:58

But adding in the social proof was,

like, literally the highlight of my day

567

: 00:31:02

except for publishing the End Charge.

568

: 00:31:04

It's still second to that.

569

: 00:31:05

But Jocelyn has a way where you can bring

in your onboarding forms, your weekly

570

: 00:31:11

transcripts with your clients, and you

can tag it for the different offers that

571

: 00:31:16

you have in the app, so that when you are

writing an e- Like, if I wanted to write

572

: 00:31:19

an email about the experience edit, and

I wanna make sure that I have some proof

573

: 00:31:24

Episode 351

28th Sep 2026

You're Sending Emails. Why Isn't Anyone Clicking?

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